bump..

127 signatures till now

Bump

The petition should address DGCA and explain a few things/ misconceptions before it will be listened to, have made a small draft with limited vocabulary i have, i request all member to pitch in (pun intended) and add/ subtract to this draft and let us try to amend the current petition so it is stronger and speaks for us!



Dear Sirs/Madams at DGCA,

This is a plea from all RC (Radio Controlled) Hobbyist flying planes, helicopters and multirotors (aka drones) please hear us out, instead of banning drones we plead you to set norms and rules which the hobbyist have to follow.

To set aside your fears let us explain that we do this for fun, it's a expensive hobby but yet we pursue it because it teaches us a lot about electronics, aerodynamics and promotes/ generates interest in science amongst the youngsters who watch us fly. Of course we don't deny that these can be misused, but so can every other article of daily use, vehicles are used for criminal activities but you don't ban driving, even if accidents kill people on road almost everyday. Banning RC Hobby will be a great loss, for future generation and we who spend out time and passion (not to mention great deal of money) to do something constructive.

Every country has it's share of hobbyist in this field, i request this be studied because blindly banning it will not only deprive new generation of learning something good but also we will be left behind in learning/ creating   technology, a subject we Indians pride ourselves in. This is the most popular electronics project in every engineering college and this speaks for itself.

A misconception we would like to clear is that the quads (drones) have become notorious because they are easy to learn and require little space to take of and fly unlike RC planes and cars used in this hobby, but all over the world they are used for many constructive purposes, agriculture, aerial survey (MEMBERS please add to this, with links if possible).

Following are some of the rules we hobbyist agree should be enforced (Seniors of the forum, we will need your help here the most)

Rule 1)
Rule 2)
Rule 3)
....

Very well written sir
I think some experienced member should type or write all of this down and send it as a letter to the DGCA person responsible
I think putting it on change.org will not help a lot as there are not enough frequent rc flyers and moreover other people won't support us as they are scared
So direct petition according to me will be the best thing
Experts please correct me if you think I am wrong

Another option is to open a public grievance on http://pgportal.gov.in/GrievanceNew.aspx . As many people can do it, preferably with custom drafts.

Choose "Ministry of Civil Aviation" & post the draft there. It usually attract some kind of reply.
The same may be addressed to Internal Security, Defense & Home ministry.

Keep the change.org petition intact too. If we get the numbers, it stand a chance.

Good idea Sandyx.

Quote from: sandyx on July 26, 2015, 11:43:38 AM
Another option is to open a public grievance on http://pgportal.gov.in/GrievanceNew.aspx . As many people can do it, preferably with custom drafts.

Choose "Ministry of Civil Aviation" & post the draft there. It usually attract some kind of reply.
The same may be addressed to Internal Security, Defense & Home ministry.

Keep the change.org petition intact too. If we get the numbers, it stands a chance.

I guess in the PG Portal there an option to write directly to PM or PMO? As the thing goes, letters written to PM or PMO gets forwarded to corresponding Ministries with the added advantage that whatever may be the action the Ministry takes, that is monitored by the PMO. Also since the Ministry knows that the PMO is monitoring the issue, they consider it with due seriousness.

In Indian system, nobody wants to take a decision. Everybody wants the higher official to take the decision. And in this kind of system, I have personal experience that the top-down approach works more efefctively. We are all thinking of writing to DGCA because they have published the notification banning drones. But now it not only the DGCA that will be taking decision. As news reports suggest. a law is being drafted. That will be done at a much higher level

I think members can write their views on the PG Portal. Main letter should be addressed to the PM and copies, if required can be given downwards. The only issue is that we do not know which of the agencies are involved here and to what extent. Letter written to the PM will automatically be forwarded to the relevant Ministries without us worrying about it.

I will post my draft here. Other members should also post theirs. It is not necessary that everybody should write the same thing. But if we see others' drafts, we can take some of the points and incorporate in our own.

It seems that no "official view" from RC India is going to be presented to the Government. In that case let individual members take it up in large numbers. I'd give a pause to my quad building and try to draft my own letter today.

Re Draft letter: The moment you mention ''expensive'' & ''spend lots of money'' it will be considered elitist, and without populism or a need for the masses

Therefore the concentration should be on:

1. Educational Value
2. Training of future Aviation, Robotics, Embedded Systems and Artificial Intelligence specialists for the next wave of "Made In India''
3. 2 above will in time prove to be a major import substitute with limitless export earnings

Quote from: santanucus on July 26, 2015, 01:58:09 PM
I guess in the PG Portal there an option to write directly to PM or PMO?

This seems to be that link http://pgportal.gov.in/pmocitizen/Grievancepmo.aspx

Quote from: sanjayrai55 on July 26, 2015, 02:06:44 PM

2. Training of future Aviation, Robotics, Embedded Systems and Artificial Intelligence specialists for the next wave of "Made In India''

Better steer clear of that usage. Might contribute to the hell they're preparing for us already.

I didn't understand what you are trying to say Sandyx. If it is a joke, I didn't find it amusing

No no not at all a joke.

See the last line of the petition.

"-no autonomous UAVs controlled by Artificial Intelligence. Only Remotely controlled aircrafts that are controlled by a human are allowed for safety purposes."

It's better to keep AI away from the whole equation. To us that tech is positive, but opposite to the rest.

Sometimes AI controlled UAVs are better. Without AI what to do if a drone gets out of control? At least with GPS and RTL, there is a chance that it would not go away and fall on someone's head. AI is not the monster that its made out to be. Total manual control is often a risky proposition considering the fact that many amateur fliers are now flying commercially available drones. I don't know why the issue of manual control is so emphasized upon. FAA in USA has not put any such restriction. All they say is that it should not go out of sight.

If GPS, RTH etc which are quite common in even toy aerial devices are included under AI, then i stand corrected. The same should reflect in the petition too. The evil kind of AI the media projects is still a fair distance away from us commoners, so that shouldn't be a threat either. The only requirement is these things shouldn't 'develop' a mind of its own, & there should be a manual override for the full spectrum of its operation. I guess that's what's meant by that line in petition.

Quote from: sandyx on July 26, 2015, 02:41:25 PM

It's better to keep AI away from the whole equation. To us that tech is positive, but opposite to the rest.

True, true

I have drafted a letter addressed to the PM which I plan to send through http://pgportal.gov.in/pmocitizen/Grievancepmo.aspx . There is a 4000 character limit there....this one is more than 8000 ! Either I have to reduce it or better...write small forwarding letter and attach the full letter as PDF attachment. Later to the Ministry using http://pgportal.gov.in/ . There are other ways to send the letter to PM  e.g. by post or email. In PG Portal, it is possible to see the actions being taken in this matter. I'd send this letter by post also.

The letter is relatively big (3 page in Word)...maybe no one will read this. But they will at least see the subject and forward it to the concerned department.

If anybody wants to send a letter but has no time to draft one, they can use this one, after suitable amendment. Also, if there is any suggestion on this, please post it.

We should send as many letters as possible. The more the number of letters, the more likely it is that they'd take notice of the issue.

---

Quote
To
Shri Narendra Modi
Honourable Prime Minister of India
152, South Block, Raisina Hill
New Delhi-110011

Respected Sir,

Sub: (i) Request to exclude recreational users and hobbyists building and flying UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) / UAS / Quadcopters / Drones etc. from the DGCA ban and (ii) Request to take into consideration the interests of flyers in any future law or regulations being formulated in this respect

As you are aware, India has a thriving community of hobbyists who build and fly various types of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles which include planes, helicopters, gliders and Quadcopters or Quadrotors (commercially known as Drones). More recently the availability of such readymade UAVs of various sizes in the market has also given rise to a community of recreational flyers who fly such UAV/ drones for recreation or for photography. Drones are now also being used all around the world for various commercial and non-commercial civilian applications including aerial photography, agriculture, transport of goods and so on. A new kind of sports using drones called FPV Racing is also becoming popular very fast.

2.   The commercial availability and proliferation of UAVs in the market has given rise to the issues of national security, of inexperienced users endangering the lives of people or aircrafts and intrusion of privacy of people. Like any technology, UAVs are also dual-use. These may be used for constructive or destructive purposes, either intentionally or unintentionally.

3.   While there is a requirement to control the use of UAVs in some manner, unfortunately, the blanket ban of DGCA on flying all kinds of UAVs vide Public Notice issued from File No. 05-13/2014-AED dated 7th October 2014 has at one stroke criminalized the hobbyists and amateurs. It has also forced the budding engineers and innovators who design, build and assemble such UAVs as their engineering projects to stop constructing and flying the same. This is no doubt harmful for the future generation in a country which already lacks innovators.

This will also effectively destroy the budding domain of FPV drone racing in India which is poised to become a new discipline in sports in the next decade. This month itself the first ever National Drone Championships were held in the USA where participants from all over the world, including people of Indian origin residing in the USA took part.

4.   In the USA, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has only restricted commercial use of UAV / Drones. But they have not put any control on amateurs or individuals flying these UAVs as a hobby or for recreation purposes. Nor have they made any requirement of flying licence mandatory. Instead they have issued some guidelines for recreational users flying drones, which are given at the URL http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/for-recreational-users/ . It is to be noted that USA, unlike India, inspite of its post 9/11 security concerns and huge volume of air traffic has not banned its citizens from recreational use of UAVs.

5.    Apart from recreational flying, one of the key uses of a UAV is in the domain of aerial photography. In fact a large number of tourists carry a UAV along with them these days to the countries where they visit so that they can get a different perspective of their tourist destination. Many tourists are known to produce wonderful aerial photos and videos and publish them online. Such amateur photos and videos act as an important mode of free publicity for tourism of the destination country. Unfortunately, with a blanket ban on drones in India, tourists arriving in India will never have the chance to shoot an amazing aerial video of Goa or Kerala which would have resulted in free worldwide publicity for our Incredible India.

   There is a concern that aerial photography will put our national security at risk. While there is an element of truth here, usually the extent of such a risk is an over-estimation. In any case with high resolution aerial photographs of almost all of the country available through Google Maps and even higher resolution photographs available to Military Satellites of various countries, aerial photographs shot from drones having very limited range and battery life can hardly add to such a security risk.

6.   Drones have a huge potential in agriculture and in other civilian sectors as well. Only recently a TV news story was shown on how an Indian farmer made and used a drone to sprinkle pesticide and check for diseases in his farm. The potential applications are unlimited.

7.   If this hobby, sports as well as commercial production is encouraged at this nascent stage, in future Indian companies and startups can take a leading role in this area with effects percolating to the areas of Aviation, Electronics, Robotics, Embedded Systems and so on, leading to a success of the "Make in India" concept that you have so successfully campaigned for.

8.    Sir, inspite of the above, there is a need to regulate the use of the UAVs keeping in view the security concerns of the nation as well as to maintain the safety, security and privacy of the people. However, while doing that, the necessary laws or rules should not be such restrictive that it stifles innovation and puts India and Indians at a disadvantageous position vis-à-vis other countries of the world. Regulations are definitely needed but not paranoia. We have seen that in the past such restrictions have proved detrimental to the progress of the nation. Accordingly, here are a few suggestions which may kindly be kept in consideration while framing any new Rule / Law /Guidelines by DGCA or any other agencies

Proposals for Guidelines for Recreational users of UAVs

-   Recreational use of UAVs by hobbyists and amateurs may be allowed subject to certain guidelines and conditions
-   Commercial use of UAVs may be restricted and subjected to permission from the proper authorities
-   Flying upto 400 feet in the air may be allowed
-   Flying over crowded area should not be allowed
-   Flying over sensitive infrastructure like power plants, water treatment plants, military areas, airports, jails, restricted zones etc. should not be allowed
-   Flying within 5 km of Airport should not be allowed
-   The total payload carrying capacity of UAVs may be restricted upto a certain limit
-   UAVs should be flown within eyesight
-   UAV exclusion zones may be created and made known to flyers. Flying and aerial photography may be prohibited in such exclusion zones.

9.   There has been arguments by certain quarters that licence may be issued for flying UAVs similar to that issued for vehicles or for persons who are flying. However, such a proposal in respect of recreational flyers will be counter-productive in such a big country like ours. Apart from taxing the government machinery, it will give rise to the infamous "Licence Raj" and "Inspector Raj" prevalent till 1980s, breeding corruption, red tape and harassment. In the USA, the FAA has not proposed any licensing in respect of the recreational users. However, if at all some control needs to be exercised in India in respect of the UAV flying considering security aspects, a proposal is given to use e-Governance for this purpose for "self-registration" of UAVs by persons flying them.

Proposal for Online Self-Registration System for recreational users of UAV using e-Governance

-   A web portal may be created for self-registration of UAV fliers and their UAVs
-   Flyers can be citizens of India or International tourists and can self-register themselves online. This will be a one-time registration
-   Domestic flyers may be identified and linked with Aadhar Card Number or Election Identity Card number
-   International flyers may be identified and linked with their passport numbers
-   Once the person self-registers himself/herself online, he/she can register one or more UAVs flown by him/her
-   Photos, weight and other capabilities of the UAV e.g camera, FPV, telemetry etc. and similar details can be uploaded by the user himself/herself
-   After entering details of UAV, a printout of UAV identification number can be generated from the system and pasted on the UAV itself
-   Places where they are likely to fly can be entered online by the user himself. For example, if someone wants to fly in Goa, he/she will enter the time and dates and locations online. Flying locations can be indicated out on a Google Map mashup at the site or just mentioned.
-   The map can also automatically display restricted areas where flying should not be done. Time based restricted areas can also be shown e.g. around Red Fort area on August 15
-   After the user registers the location to fly (which can be a date or a range of dates) he/she can generate a printout, which he should carry with himself at the time of flying. Authorities can also ask for the slip anytime from the flier

With the above system, no manual intervention and permission is required. No specific agency is required to deploy personnel for licensing. However, all UAVs are self-registered and have a registration number. All flyers are also identified. No harassment will be made to persons possessing self-registration printouts. Also authorities can take action against persons without self-registration documents and seize UAVs not having self-registration documents.

10.   Sir, being a hobbyist, it is my earnest request to you to personally look into the matter so that the indefinite ban on flying UAVs imposed by DGCA may be lifted at the earliest and a Law, Policy or Guideline may be put into place allowing recreational users and hobbyists to fly UAVs without any problem. A continuing prohibition of a new and rapidly evolving technology with a huge potential is detrimental to our country in the long run and everyday that passes with such a prohibition forces our country backwards as compared to the nations which are reaping its benefits.

Thanking You,

Yours faithfully
XYZ

Shall I add this letter to the petition?

Sure !

hey guys, am back....nice ideas emerging.... if anyone sends a letter to pmo level or so, pls notify...will definitely try to help...

That letter seems to be perfect, should we co-ordinate and request members to send at same day? to attract attention!

yup

one day, altogether...

the letter is amazing santanucus

Thanks Well.. writing to the PM....so had to put some efforts

Quote from: rajsachdev on July 26, 2015, 11:26:06 PM
That letter seems to be perfect, should we co-ordinate and request members to send at same day? to attract attention!

Not too many on the same day ...but I think lots of letters sustained over a period of time will keep their attention. From my personal experience I have seen that too many letters on the same subject on the same day tend to create some noise but they will forget the issue if nothing happens over the next few month. If letters keep coming on a sustained basis then the issue won't be forgotten.

For example, suppose some of our members send our petitions over a period of 15 days to PMO. Then we keep quiet for a month (we don't want to irritate them..do we? ). And then few others send more letters to the same organization. That will never allow the issue to die down. In a similar manner we can send letters to other persons and organizations.

And we should follow up on our petition on regular basis...sending reminders etc., approaching young MPs. Maybe Dr. Kalam, our ex-President too...and so on. If somebody has access to media, we can take it up to them as well. We need a different kind of letter for media.

Basically we have to exert sustained pressure and build up a momentum. I know its hard to concentrate on all these things when we could use our time in pursuing the real thing ...our hobby. I am making a quad and its flipping over and I was thinking of troubleshooting it today. But if flying is made impossible what would I do with a drone at home? Its needs sustained effort..but if we love this hobby, maybe that much effort we should put in.

At the same time, we should encourage more and more people to support the change.org petition. We should aim for at least 1000. We have more than 14000 members here. Surely 1000 is not a big target.