Folks,

Just came across this video of cobra maneuver being performed by Sukhoi SU37. nice stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDXm9bt0s1Y&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgHoBDW56CI&feature=related

What is the significance of this maneuver (I guess in a combat perspective) ?

Quote from: anwar on March 23, 2010, 06:45:58 PM
What is the significance of this maneuver (I guess in a combat perspective) ?

to get behind the enemy aircraft..its like you go into the cobra and your speed decreases and the enemy aircraft which was behind you now passes below you and ahead of your position.

The lateral 'J' and inverted cobra maneuvers achievable by F-22 and F-35 are far superior. Sukoii is like a Sumo fighter, but lacks integrated avionics and flight data sharing. The reason Indian air force broke its 60 years of unaccountability to US planes.

Quote from: ujjwaana on March 23, 2010, 09:57:45 PM
The lateral 'J' and inverted cobra maneuvers achievable by F-22 and F-35 are far superior. Sukoii is like a Sumo fighter, but lacks integrated avionics and flight data sharing. The reason Indian air force broke its 60 years of unaccountability to US planes.

Start counting with the Vampire, Mystere, Hunter, Gnat, Canberra, Jaguar, Mirage, in all does not look like 60 years of unaccountability . It was more to do with economics and even more to do with who you could depend on not someone who would block your supplies and spares at a critical juncture

If you would know, the F 16 was developed by the America to counter the humble MiG 21, and due to it's age came out more superior, similarly Su 37 is a derivative of Su 30 (which itself was an improvement of Su 27) and not a machine developed from scratch, where as F 22 and F 35  are in similar class and developed from scratch, hence I do not think it is fair to compare the Su 37 and F 22/35.

What the Russian equipment scores over is in ruggedness and ability to withstand punishment, while the western equipment may be able to deliver a heavier punch and deliver it more accurately the Russian equipment ensures that after doing the same it brings the pilot back home and continues doing so under adverse maintenance and weather conditions  

Quote from: flyingboxcar on March 23, 2010, 10:20:37 PM
Start counting with the Vampire, Mystere, Hunter, Gnat, Canberra, Jaguar, Mirage, in all does not look like 60 years of unaccountability . It was more to do with econimics and even more to do with who you could depend on not someone who would block your supplies and spares at a critical juncture

I guess Capt sir is the right person to know that, being in the only premiere organization where you can see real fighters being made. These choices should have been been a double edged sword  for India. One side you have 'Not so fair' States and then so unrelible (quality/schedules) old pal Russia. Great that they made such an open tender, inviting so many suppliers. May the air force chooses the best in lieu of Tax payers money.

Quote from: ankurkaul17 on March 23, 2010, 09:36:17 PM
to get behind the enemy aircraft..its like you go into the cobra and your speed decreases and the enemy aircraft which was behind you now passes below you and ahead of your position.

But that move must be standard for a while.  The mid 80s movie "Top Gun" featured that.  I do remember Tom Cruise saying "Hit the brakes and let him fly right by!".  Wonder what is the significance for these newer fighters... they must be making it easier to perform.

Viktor Pugachev performed the "Cobra" for the first time at the Paris Airshow at Le Bourget in 1989. Thereafter, it has been debated, dissected and discussed in various forums and institutes the world over. The findings have been almost unanimous - "Great move for Airshows and displays, but of no real use in actual air combat situations."

Why? In an actual air combat (dog fight) situation, the pilot chasing you would rarely try to catch up with you (within gunfire range) to attempt to shoot you down using cannon or machine gun fire. (If he did, that would bring him close enough to overshoot you as you performed the Cobra!) Unfortunately, he would probably fire a heat seeking missile from BVR (Beyond Visual Range) aimed at the exhaust from your tail pipe. Now if you did a Cobra at this stage, the missile would happily climb up your exhaust - it wouldn't fall for your stall! End of story.

"Hit the brakes and let him fly right by" sounded great in the movie and would have worked wonders in 1944. The Me 262 would have benefited from Air Brakes, but it didn't have to worry about any faster aircraft chasing it! The MiG 29 wouldn't chase an F 15 Eagle maintaining just 20 aircraft length distance behind it. All that was over and done with in 1971.

As I see it, if this maneuver is carried out in friendly skies during a combat situation, you can still be shot down by a heat seeker. If you attempt it in an hostile sky, you are asking for trouble - the heat seeker and/or the SAM will get you! Remember, you have deactivated the Angle of Attack Limiter and the G Limiter as you go into the Cobra, you are not yawing or rolling as you go into this tail slide, you are rock steady in the sky and as a pilot you are preoccupied with applying power to overcome a stall speed and also fighting an immense G force to prevent a blackout (your G Limiter is disengaged, remember?). Therefore you are a sitting duck for a missile - AAM / SAM, that is locking on to your heat source. You are being "painted".........

That's the way I see it, but I ain't no combat pilot.

Regards,

VC

So there are no "dog fights" any more ? Or are they just missiles and flares ?

I don't think the classical dogfights exists anymore. Now, its more of technology doing the combat. There was a program in history channel called   "Dogfights". Its a very nice program explaining the tactics used by real pilots in combat situations, right from evasive maneauver till kamikaze attacks.. The best part is the interview with the real (old) pilots who did the combat flying. Further, there are episodes on jet combats that exposes technology. But then, the ww2 dogfights are the best to watch. I have a huge collections of these with me. I would try to post ebay links to it later.

I always used to wonder why people are not doing combat flying in India. I was trying to get into it just before I relocated. Chan was very encouraging pilot who wanted to do combat. Any news for you Chan?

-ismail

The classic dog fight era involving guns and gun sights, ended more or less with Korean war.
However some of the subsequent conflicts in third world countries did involve aerial gunfights. Many of the modern jets still carry guns for engaging targets of oppurtunity, however yes the aerial combat today is so imperosonal that both the sides do not know who or what they are hitting or who or what hit them. Similalry gone are the days of Aces totalling victories in hundreds, to be called a Jet Ace, one needs to score just 5 kills     

"to be called a Jet Ace, one needs to score just 5 kills"

Even in the good old days, you had to have just 5 confirmed kills to earn the title of an Ace. As far as Aces with 'hundreds of kills' are concerned, there is a lot of controversy as most (if not all) of these 100+ kills were claimed by the Germans operating in the Eastern front during WW 2. Erich Hartmann topped the score at 352, to be the recognised as the highest scoring ace ever. Safe to say, this score will not be surpassed in our lifetime (Insha Allah).

Adolf Galland and Vati Moelders scores seem more authentic. However, when compared to the scores of Allied Aces and Americans in Korea, these scores seem inflated, to say the least. The debate continues........

Here one of the dogfight episodes found in youtube. There are many in youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnDjwXnj3Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1NTUzj7cGw&feature=related

And some jet action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFX78bLM-Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JAjwYnuDak&feature=related

Guess we will see dog fights between drones soon

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/59405

Who knows, soon FPV RC pilots will be in great demand by the air forces of various countries !