The mystery of Air France flight 447

Started by anwar, May 29, 2010, 05:18:31 PM

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anwar

The transcript is clear that this is human error... one pilot had elevator controls  full up the whole time. 
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PankajC

I did not come across this in the article.

Anyway while the human error is a valid argument,  I find blaming the dead as being too a easy way to shut the case. Personally, I think the root cause maybe elsewhere (not wanting to sound alarmist though).
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anwar

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shobhit17

#28
Well.... I took my time reading all this and also saw the Nat Geo episode on the said Crash.  The few errors which I could make out as a Combat Pilot myself....
1.   The aircraft was planned to be going through intense weather.  Something what civil aircraft do routinely.
2.   The aircraft was destined here to fly through the intense weather because of being too heavy to clinb over the intense weather.  If it was lighter (lesser fuel if it was permitted) it could have climbed over the weather and gone safe.
3.   Teh capt left for his scheduled rest period just before the Pitot tubed experienced Icing and got blocked.
4.   The new Pilot in occupied the Capt's seat but the aircraft was being flown by the Co-pilot with the new pilot still trying to find his bearings in the cockpit.
5.   There was lack of understanding as to who was in command now.
6.   When the Icing took place.... and the Airspeed read low.... the Stall Warning came in and so did the Master Wx.  The Pilots correctly deactivated the Auto Pilot.
7.   Now.... is the difficult part.  None of the Pilots knew who was flying the plane... the copilot instead of pushing the control column forward to put the plane in a shallow dive pulled on the column and raised the nose.
8.   This caused the airspeed to drop further.
9.   The new pilot realised that he should push the column farward and he did that... but the co-pilot was pulling on the column quite hard and was actually overriding the efforts of the new pilot. The aircraft st this time was slowly pitching up and having a good enough ROD in a stalled flight.
10.  They realised that the aircraft was was going down and they opened full throttle.  Probably they were already in the region of
reverse command (speed much below the min drag speed and at a state wherein even provind full power was insufficient to sustain level flight - with the nose raised so high).
11.  The new pilot by now was also confused and he called in the Capt from his rest.
12.  He came into the cockpit and took time to realise what was happeening. He gave correcting orders but well.... probably it was too late for the aircraft to come out of the stalled state and resume normal flight.
13.  Yes in this case where things went wrong and terribly wrong.... even 35,000 feet were insufficient for recovering the plane in time.

The other part..... It is normal that Pilots experience icing while flying.... but they need to keep their wits about themselves to keep things safe... what we call as "situational awareness". The icing could have gone off in a few minutes with the Pitot heating on..... but during this period the Pitots would have given error readings.  Once the heating would have melted the ice things would have returned to normal.

As a combat pilot one flies in so odd situations / has very odd flying profiles and so has to actually train to fly the plane manually in all possible odd situations, he is expected to do his job and fly back in case the battle damaged aircraft is flyable.  Fighters have the option of a pilot to leave the aircraft.... but thats not a decision what a pilot takes in haste.... A lot of thought is given before he does plan to eject out.  Whereas other like helicopters and transport aircraft one has to fly them back OR land them at a suitable place OR perish with the Aircraft.  So the attempt is to fly it out as far as possible or find a suitable place to land... Again the emphasis is on manual flying in odd conditions.... Now-a-days with night flying with Night Vision Goggles its even more complex.....

One can not say that civil pilots are better or Military Pilots are better..... But yes... Military Pilots are trained to actually fly in what is called as a "non routine"  situation as a routine (practicing all the possible emmergencies in air while actually flying the aircraft)..... whereas civil pilots only get to fly these "non routine" situations only while doing their simulator flying which is far too few sorties in a gap of guess what.... six months or maybe a year.  Due to the very nature of military flying pilots are probably more disciplined and have a better situational awareness..... though bad apples are everywhere.  For these  pilots... its not about flying from routine airfields.... its about flying from improper airfields / landing strips and doing it well

Autopilots and automated flying is something what is a luxury or resorted to when required, but during this time the Pilot is trained to be extra cautious and to also to reply on his instincts and to corelate with instruments......

Well I guess civil aircraft being made so safe.... at times pilots do get a little carefree or casual.... so many cases of pilots ging to sleep in their pilots seats...... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/27/uk-britain-pilots-sleep-idUKBRE98Q0L620130927
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2432847/Both-pilots-asleep-cockpit-packed-plane-dont-worry-autopilot.html

Now that the pilots flying that aircraft are no more I do not wish to state what should have been the correct actions what the pilots should have taken...... well... whaever were the errors... they had drastic concequences..... Hope we take lessons from that and no other pilot repeats the same.

RIP all on board flight 447
Well I been into aeromodelling since I was in School....  and then been in the air for over 30 years.  Now looking to be back into aeromodelling full time...

rcpilotacro

Deep stall is an issue, this is not the first time an aeroplane has been lost due to deep stall, stall warning and stick pusher came about post the first crash, i think it was immdtly after take off and it was British European Airways (was it 1973/4?)

Most Companies today, post Hudson Crash where an Ex Fighter Pilot ditched in the hudson river and saved countless lives prefer Ex Military Pilots rather than these AutoPilot Pilots (No offence please),

Sad part however is, in spite of warning these Autopilot Pilots didnt realsie they were hurtling to ground in Deep Stall and there was no Flyby wire recovery mode in this Air France
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