The real meaning of R&D 

Quote from: anwar on August 24, 2011, 12:15:02 AM
Interesting to see people getting worked up, without (what seems to be) reading/understanding what is posted !

Very interesting indeed but

Quote from: foamybuilder on August 24, 2011, 12:53:14 AM

Quote from: ujjwaana on August 23, 2011, 11:56:44 PM
+1 .
Okay, let me clear one thing, HK is only selling such **Copied**  models, not manufacturing them:

Your own post contradicts the subject of the post you created.
Why was it not posted that http://www.scaleflying.com is coping funjet, and why hobbyking a target always . I am no ambassador for hk, but wanted to understand why only hk is targeted while all most sellers do the same.

Ok, atleast I confessed my mistake. But selling a grossly copied product is equally a felony. Foamybuilder : You may see Pirated CDs being sold more openly on Bangalore street than the original ones. But you dont know, selling such CDs/DVDs in place like Hyderabad is not that easy. HK can't claim that they are so lame and ignorant to sell a knock off. They are equally part of IP violation. What do you think if some seller sneaks Glaxy S2 in Europe and sells them, the authorities would ignore them ?

I still stand firm on the fact that this is a case of Gross Copy and not 'Similar looking' (case of Parkzone's Stryker). Just changing the aft fuse can't win the case for them. If it were not, the Moderator of a famous RC Forum would not have asked me to take permission from the original designer of a plane whose modified design I wished to post on his forum.

That would be EOD (End of discussion) from my side. I was just curious how people can run like this day light robbery, without any respect of others. Take one thing from me, if tomorrow the west and Japan stops innovating, China wont have anything left to copy. Even small innovation from our mother land was not spared. Chinese even copied Bajaj's Pulsar design and tried selling them in Latin America as 'Gulsar'  - didn't  even try to innovate on name. Or was that 'Looking similar' ?

Reverse  engineer and dump is more apt

Quote from: ujjwaana on August 24, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
I still stand firm on the fact that this is a case of Gross Copy and not 'Similar looking' (case of Parkzone's Stryker). Just changing the aft fuse can't win the case for them.

That decision is only up to a court. It could go 50 - 50, depending on no less part by who can hire better lawyers. Wonder why no one sued HobbyKing yet, in other countries they sell (assuming Chinese courts would not be viable venues for justice) ?

I am glad that at least towards the last part the discussion is about "Chinese" and not just HobbyKing   At least there is some thought that this is much more widespread, including the fact that many of the models sold by shops in India are Chinese made duplicates of premium brands, starting with balsa models and knock off Baja cars.  There are even knock-offs of knock-offs being sold.

It seems like hatred of HobbyKing is the primary driver for many, while ignoring everything else (daylight robberies!) that is similar and happening all around us. While not condoning many of the business practices of Hobbyking, a little broader view on these issues would be eye opening to many. 

Quote from: anwar on August 24, 2011, 06:14:45 PM

It seems like hatred of HobbyKing is the primary driver for many, while ignoring everything else (daylight robberies!) that is similar and happening all around us. While not condoning many of the business practices of Hobbyking, a little broader view on these issues would be eye opening to many. 

+1 Anwar Sir.

I am unable to understand the HobbyKing and China bashing. Look in our own backyard and you will find not just "gross copying" but total look alikes with similar logos and outright "cloned" fakes. Apparel, bags, etc. are the obvious ones. Next are cosmetics, soaps, shampoos of known brands in deceptively similar packing. These are mainly for the rural markets/small towns where they are easily mistaken for the  real McCoy.

And, as far as IPR goes, let's take a poll on how many of us use genuine, non pirated, software.  If the replies are honest, the results would be very revealing!

Finally, how come there have been no  issues with Spektrum and Futaba cloned receivers from the very same source?

Quote from: anwar on August 24, 2011, 06:14:45 PM
That decision is only up to a court. It could go 50 - 50, depending on no less part by who can hire better lawyers. Wonder why no one sued HobbyKing yet, in other countries they sell (assuming Chinese courts would not be viable venues for justice) ?

It seems like hatred of HobbyKing is the primary driver for many, while ignoring everything else (daylight robberies!)

I think you know about the story how the manufacturers of Deans connector took HobbyKing to courts long back for 'selling' its fake connectors, if not for manufacturing. It was an irony that very soon HK's own XT60 were duplicated too. Litigation to be fought on foreign land is quite a tough task even a country as other party, forget a company. Especially in an iron clad country like China, which today holds US by ransom, owning trillion in security bonds. Just like you cannot hold one guilty unless proven, you cannot hold one 'Not guilty' if people are helpless to start proceedings against them. The very point that HK still runs its 'US warehouse' using the cover of PO Boxes (if you dont believe, read the other regarded forums, which even running on HK endorsement, doesn't censor HK's criticism), proves that there there are enough litigation against HK from running a Brick and Mortar LHS in the US mainland.

Now coming to HK 'Hatred'. I am waiting for my 46th order from HK, and only once I had to suffer material loss due to mishandling of my package by Swiss Post. Even though HK showed indifference to my complains, I moved on. I dont have personal hatred / sentiments / extending condolences to my fellow flyer due to thier bad experience. I always follow my mind. I think this would make things clear to few people'a assumption. Full stop.

Lately HK has started hurting one's self respect by brutally chopping off one's genuine rant against HK product and services, on its own forum/site and few RC Forums run on HK's endorsement (Thanks there are many self respected mod still kept their forum's dignity). I am dead against such an attitude, even though I keep buying stuff I can't find elsewhere. But I am not a slave of HK, buying only from them - I have explored enough of other online store across the globe (even ones in Bulgaria, Czech, Austria, Poland) instead of keep licking HK's lines.

And Mr Sushil, I started this thread that mature people would at least acknowledge that Flyjet is indeed copy. As said, two wrongs dont make one right. Fake/Copy product which you see in local market are again largely product of China. They selling in your backyard doesn't make it original. About Software - its called Piracy or 'Illegitimate copy' in the words of Sir Richard Stallman, yes it is rampant, in the houses of most Indian houses/office, but believe me, finding pirated software would soon become too difficult and using ones find, too dangerous for your Identity/Financial details. I am telling this as track such things professionally.

FrSky's TFR8 Rx for FASST (HK markets them as Orange) are Compatible Rx and not outwardly copies. At least both FrSky and HK acknowledges it. DSM2 Rx are indeed copy and you don't see US Sellers selling them. Again this was not an ethical debate on buying /using such product but a satire on HK so keen on selling cloned product than coming up with one of its own which sells (most of their original planes are in the liquidation section)


I think I have made myself very clear, and hope people let me conclude and put EOD this time.

Quote from: ujjwaana on August 25, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
But I am not a slave of HK, buying only from them - I have explored enough of other online store across the globe (even ones in Bulgaria, Czech, Austria, Poland) instead of keep licking HK's lines.

I think I have made myself very clear, and hope people let me conclude and put EOD this time.

Here in lies the whole problem.  Every post seems to imply (or even expressed bluntly) that everyone else is some kind of "slave of HK" or as if "HK is owned by the father-in-law"s of other members here who said they did not have any issues with HK YET, and as people who never look anywhere else.  That "tone" is why I was responding to these threads. When HK started selling things at 25% or even 10% the price of Tower Hobbies on many items, this hobby was changed FOREVER.  It is not unnatural that people appreciate that, even while fully acknowledging their shortcomings.

All these threads seem to imply like HK alone is a theif, HK alone is copying and so on, while the same things are being sold and similar things are being done by shops who are projected as alternatives of HK (let alone some LHSes).  It is really difficult to find other hobby stores where negative reviews about the store or their products are in public on their own sites, and that too considering many shops do not even provide such an option.  The exception is eBay. 

Objectivity and a level playing field (when it comes to criticism) is the issue. One has to take into account the size of the operation, external factors (shipping etc) objectively in these discussions. That is why I am tempted to post in these threads, even though lately it seems a total waste of time.

No one can escape customer's wrath forever.  If anyone misbehaves enough, it will come back and bite them.  HK or Tower or LHS or whoever.

Hey Ujjwaana! Why the EOD? If you stir up a hornet's nest then be around for a little while ;-)

My two bits, I am quite happy with a cloned DSM2 Organe Rx. Bottom line, I have less of funds available and want to use it as "wisely as I deem fit" ethics be dammed. Besides, I also use the cheap "chinese" stuff because I know this is the money spent in hobby and not on something more durable - like buying a car for instance.

Friends, i do not want to divert anyone one from the discussion as i was also interested to have it since i see saurabh flying his beautiful jet all the time,  but on HK it's backorder. But was able to get it from praveen http://flying--rc.blogspot.com/2011/08/flyjet-x-64mm-edf.html with motor, servo and esc. just waiting to get it delivered

Reverse Engineer & Dump, is more apt. well i see FlyRc has launched this machine with 64mm EDF and a 50 A ESC.

Another Funjet clone offered by HK in future (okay, even if HK does not make it!), which is a step closer than Flyjet

See HobbyBlog from your HK account. Still people have disagreement that this **Not** copying the design and has an iota of self design ?

Pankaj sir, I posted this as piggyback as I owed an answer atleast to you. You pointed out why one should go for Cloned/copied - the price factor should be the most reasonable excuse.  It is so applicable for Orange Rx and Turnigy motors, which I agree myself.

But sadly I dont find any compelling reason to go for these clones planes in India. The prices offered by LHS / HK (inc shipping) for them are sadly too much for one to chose them instead of original MPX Funjet from Rotor/RCDhamaka. Compare yourself!!

Quote from: ujjwaana on September 26, 2011, 04:41:55 PM

But sadly I dont find any compelling reason to go for these clones planes in India. The prices offered by LHS / HK (inc shipping) for them are sadly too much for one to chose them instead of original MPX Funjet from Rotor/RCDhamaka. Compare yourself!!

Well, personally speaking, if the total landed cost is within 10-15% of the imported and it saves time in procuring the item locally, then I would go in for a local purchase - irrespective whether it is a original or a clone.

But then the local vs imported and copy vs original are two threads or one? I still stand by my argument that ultimately it is the total landed cost that determines the choice in most cases. well, at least for me!!!

Quote from: PankajC on September 26, 2011, 06:06:22 PM
Well, personally speaking, if the total landed cost is within 10-15% of the imported and it saves time in procuring the item locally, then I would go in for a local purchase - irrespective whether it is a original or a clone.

Totally agree and even my purchase decisions based totally on same principle. I built my Funjet with a good setup of quality MG  Digital Servos, trusted ESC and motor for around 8.5K mark. Now one can compare how much to shelloff for the clone. Remember spending 1K for a quality plane and good setup is neither extravagance nor too much of a difference in price (again 10-15% over 7.5K mark)

HK finally launched the closest imitation of Funjet , $60 + Shippping. Mere 180Watt power plant!! Some nice comment by Timothy in the discussion thread!!

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__19690__Hobbyking_Radjet_800_EPO_800mm_PNF_.html

Hi Ujjwaana,

Atleast Mr. Hands is honest enough to accept it(rad Jet) as MPX Funjet Look alike if not copy. If not copy why he is worried in makeing this available to their German Ware house.(see Mr. Hands reply on the link below)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__19690__Hobbyking_Radjet_800_EPO_800mm_PNF_.html


And people who think clones save them money read this (reply #2)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1522989

It's like stealing stuff and selling it in a Flea market for throw away prices, if every body buys from flea market, who will buy new stuff and finally thieves, will have nothing to steal but the same stuff they sold themselves. You won't be having new models to fly.

I don't want to play the spoil sport here

Technically speaking,

There is something called a B/A ratio (Not really getting into the mumbo jumbo of spin recovery and wing tilt angle in spin) assuming that the mass distribution of the elapor is fairly constant, the length to span ratio of Funjet is .94 and Radjet is .73. What are the implications

(a) CDi (Coefficient of Lift induced drag) will be more in a Radjet due increased spanwise flow. fallout, less top speed.

(b) Roll rate will be severely affected, fallout, wont be easy to pick up a dropped wing during toss.
(Unless you increase the throw, which will have undesirable higher roll rate at high speed forcing you to go into D/R)

(c) 490 Grams means easier launch, smaller motor and poor crash Resistance.

(d) Spin recovery for .73 will be difficult, if she wing drops at low speed low altitude, Kiss it goodbye.

(e) Lower weight also accounts for low density foam, thinner wing, poor crash worthiness.

(f) Lesser length means CG margin is less, ability to balance CG by shifting batt will be difficult.

Bottom line, they both may look similar, in reality ,in airframe and performance, they are not

my 2C bit

Augustine Sir, I am not that much technical guy, Though I am a big fan of MPX FunJet. This was the first plane me and Yash saw when starting our stint in RC. And Abhay was really enjoying it's flight.
Last week while putting together Yash's FunJet I realised who intricately, this Bird is designed. And how well it is manufactured,  coincidentally Abhay with Ujjwal Maidended it, before Yash can lay his hand on it.

Oh how much I love to see this bird flying.    


And Sir, People do get deceived by looks.

Quote from: augustinev on October 20, 2011, 03:11:18 PM
Bottom line, they both may look similar, in reality ,in airframe and performance, they are not

my 2C bit

+2. I saw this striking difference in B/A which is major differentiating factor between Radjet and Funjet. With such a fragile mount, I doubt one can put a bigger powerhouse without some serious re-enforcement.

If you read my earlier post, I went ahead of claiming EPO good as Elapor.wrong. I had a severe crash on my Funjet at above 100km/hr (Mistake of looking at other plane when giving a high speed low pass). The 2200mAH/3S was bent from middle like banana peel, still it is back to 90% of its original shape after 'Elapore Soup' treatment and gluing. I had crash of much, much slower speed on my AXN but it is in a worse shape.

Those looking for a good speed machine, please stick to Funjet and add a 450 size Heli power house (4.5x4.5 prop). The ESC/Motor on RadJet is too meek to justify the name 'Jet' , RadFloat, maybe!

Sorry but this is obviously one of the HK knockers. The Bixler is a plane designed by HK it's nothing like an Easy Star I'm looking at both of them right now and can tell you straight away the cockpit on the Bixler is cavernous compared to the Cloud Fly, AXN, Easy Star. Where are these 3 planes and others made? in China and all on one assembly line. Lack of business knowledge can be a curse. Many companies make the same plane and sell them to different companies who have their own names printed on them with decals. The same box is simply printed with a different lot of graphics but this isn't stealing, copyright infringement, it's business.

Here in Australia we can buy an identical car with a little added bling or a different radio CD player from different dealers. Toyota sell a car which is identical to a Holden. Mazda sell a car which is identical with Toyota. A Vauxhall Monaro in the UK is a Holden Monaro in Australia. No infringement, just good business.

Yes there may be a bit of copyright infringements going on but does that matter. Does it worry you that much that the original cost XXXX and the copy costs XX. It's legal to buy and own them so why worry. It's not using the same name so where's the problem. Are you a shareholder I doubt it so enjoy the cheaper prices. I own 25 HK planes and I'm very happy with every one of them and HK products are becoming better all the time. I admit I was confused and thought I was buying a Funjet but it turned out to be a SkyFun. It's unbelievable. So much in fact I bought another one and with a simple change of motor and ESC I now have a 100km Skyfun and a 200KM Skyfun, for about the same price as a Funjet probably.

Take a look at HK and tell me which plane the FVP Predator is. Which plane was it stolen from? If all the planes from HK are stolen, how come they are selling from warehouses all over the world. Manufacturers know this and yet not one has been raided for selling copyright protected anything.

Actually I hate to bring this up but would you know which country is the number one copyright infringer for movies? See if you can find out.

China is becoming a big mover in export trade and it's throwing away it's copyright problems. Remember Japan? it was once a copyright infringer, look at it now. Also look at Thailand. a mecca for copyright infringement and to some degree so is Singapore. China is designing and manufacturing their own hardware these days and their inventiveness is spreading to all types of goods.

I'm the sole distributor of a brand or model boat Hulls. Stolen, No way, it was designed and made by a young University student. 5 years later he owns a warehouse making his self designed hulls. You really should be careful when accusing a large company of doing something illegal.

If you are intending to continue may I suggest a good barrister and some proof of what you say. You have branded everything HK sells as stolen. Only a fool would openly state that. I know for a fact there are a large number of manufacturers who sell solely to HK. Is a P51 stolen because it looks like a P51 sold by another company. Much of what HK sells is either a scale copy or a copy of a plane from the past. Does this mean it's stolen? Wake up and open both eyes because you seem to suffer from a one eyed outlook on who owns what.

Let's not knock a company who has done more for the hobbyist than possibly any other company involved. It has made it possible to buy a complete RC aircraft with absolutely everything someone needs to get it flying for just over $100.00 Try doing that some 10 years ago. Oh! it's a Bixler too.

Excuse me I have an order to place.   Stu

Quote from: Propfella on June 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Cloud Fly, AXN, Easy Star. Where are these 3 planes and others made? in China and all on one assembly line.

Multiplex uses a different mix of foam material, and that is considered once of their trade secrets ("Elapor").  Did you make a mistake in bunching "Easy Star" along with the other two ?   Clouds Fly and AXN are the same thing, so that sounds right.  But adding a Multiplex product to the mix does not sound right.  Seems like an inadvertent miss ? It is possible that the same factory makes them, but the material seems different.

Also, when you say you have 25 planes and all are excellent, that is a glorious, at the same time eyebrow raising feedback   Unless you have picked multiple pieces of the same good ones, I have found that their planes vary widely in quality.

My apologies, it appears I have some mix up with AXN and Easy Star. Perhaps the name Star is used on one of the AXN type line up. It's all rather confusing with all these planes and similar names or similar builds.

As for my 25 planes. I must admit I spend a lot of time reading reviews in a number of forums regarding problems found with planes I'd like to buy. As with everything, one person can buy a certain car and have nothing but trouble and another person buysthe same car and has no problems. It all depends on luck, flying ability and spotting problems before they become crashes. What takes a builder an hour to put a plane together may take me all day. Not because I'm slow but because I'm doing a lot more than just putting it together. I may insert extra carbon rods if I think something is weak. I'll use filament tape to strengthen and protect areas of the plane. I usually change all servos, horns, clevises and use pinned hinges if none are used. Maybe modify battery stowage and motor mounts. Run all wiring through clips to keep them from being chaffed or broken. Upgrade the ESC if the one supplied has no name or low amperage. I test current drawn on WOT and add a minimum od 10 to 15 amps to the rating of the ESC. Fully balance the prop and probably a few dozen other little jobs. Finally I will use a contrasting colour scheme on the underside of the plane for orientation and visibility.

Only then do I do an unpowered test fly to double check CG and trim. adjust anything required and then test fly it, keeping it low across a paddock of very long grass to trim and then higher to finish the trim. Actually much of the flying is done by a good friend as I'm disabled and can't get to the field all the time, if at all.  I have 9 built planes right here waiting for their turn at a test fly etc.

I wonder about the Elapor/EPO question we have two planes at the field we use for fun. One is a AXN type and the other a radian. Both are EPO and both have been completely written off by their owners after many and varied crashes. Our group have smashed into power lines, power poles, trees and fences, feeding troughs and the ground. Both consists of equal parts glue and foam and various coloured tape has been added to keep things together. Many gallons of boiling water have been applied to some parts to straighten the foam out. The AXN flies slightly sideways but trimming takes care of that and the radian hasa tail section which threatens to fall off with every launch. In the air the plane goes about 5% left of the tail section. Our biggest problem is no one is game to straighten anything out because it flies so darned well. Just last weekend the pilot was worried because he couldn't get it to land. He must have hit the widest thermal I've ever come across. We all ended up having a fly for over an hour. That plane flew for almost 3 hours on a 3s 2200mah battery. We couldn't kill either of them with a stick and although they appear to ignore all aerodynamic laws we wouldn't sell them for triple what they cost.

One of my Grashoppers has has it's complete tail sectioned ectomied but with a little hot glue it was back in the air in 30 minutes. EPO in my opinion is great. Yes I do have two double ups. Two grasshoppers and two Skyfuns.

I do agree quality of planes varies widely but so do the prices, Often with little relationship with each other. Luckily the planes lacking in quality in either fittings or design can always be changed. Among our group we have one plane which was a dog to fly, the CG was impossible to attain without large quantities of lead shot being used. We decided the problem was in the length so we amputated the tail section and inserted roughly 4 inches of foam, reinforced with 12 inches of carbon fiber rod. A few turns of filament tape with some red tape over that made it match the colour scheme and now that plane has a variable CG with no added weight. I'm a 63 year old foamie and although I own a few composites they all have foam wings. I love the stuff. I have a stash of Depron for some scratch builts when I have time.

Stu

Quote from: Propfella on June 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Where are these 3 planes and others made? in China and all on one assembly line. Lack of business knowledge can be a curse.

Excuse me I have an order to place.   Stu

Hi Stuart,

Let me correct you on this issue the Multiplex EasyStar is not made in China or from the same assembly line. Most of the Multiplex planes are still made in Germany like the FunCub, FunJet, Funjet Ultra, Cularis, EasyGlider, Easy Glider Pro etc and a couple are made in Philippines and only 2 models are manufactured in China.

Kartik Shah

Stu
Karthik owns the famous LHS of India called rcdhamaka.com and the sole importer and stockist of MPX products. FYI

Also, his (and his brother Sanjeev's) knowledge on many RC Airplanes and Radio manufacturers of the world is par excellence, second to none, that includes manufacturing process, marketing strategy, futures etc etc.

My Advice to you will be tread carefully with facts, figures and opinions and differentiate them clearly and unambiguously

Quote from: Propfella on June 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Take a look at HK and tell me which plane the FVP Predator is. Which plane was it stolen from? If all the planes from HK are stolen, how come they are selling from warehouses all over the world. Manufacturers know this and yet not one has been raided for selling copyright protected anything.
....
....
I'm the sole distributor of a brand or model boat Hulls. Stolen, No way, it was designed and made by a young University student.
....
....
If you are intending to continue may I suggest a good barrister and some proof of what you say. You have branded everything HK sells as stolen. Only a fool would openly state that.
...
....

Let's not knock a company who has done more for the hobbyist than possibly any other company involved. It has made it possible to buy a complete RC aircraft with absolutely everything someone needs to get it flying for just over $100.00 Try doing that some 10 years ago. Oh! it's a Bixler too.

Excuse me I have an order to place.   Stu

Birds of Feather Flok  Together. I can understand your soft feelings towards HK.
As fas as calling people accusing HK of Gross in open as FOOLs(ya... Gross IP violations), please know that HK is still operating from 'PO BOX' Address, instead of a ligitimate 'Warehoue' as HK claims. There are several Anti-Dumping littigations open against HK in EU countries.

You may justify the Illigal Copying by manufactures HK markets, but you need a common sense and 6/6 vision to find which items have been copied. HK continue to sell them is totally different matter.


BTW, how long have you been in this hobby to Crown HK as 'Best Thing Happening to R/C scene' ?? please read more about some other great Stores which actually made the differance! For Foamies/low end EP/Helis... may be Yes! Overall, larger R/C scene ? Excuse Me!