Hello everyone,
Though flying RC airplanes for over 15 years now, i never looked at Heli's with more interest than now.
But i would need some help in this area. First in selecting a good heli that i could use to learn. I prefer glow to electric. Please suggest what would be a good heli that i could use to learn the basics, and yet have the features to help me progress.
I liked the Raptor 30 .. Please advise if this would be a good one, or if i should invest a little more and get Raptor 50.

I have my 10C radio. What servos will such a heli require ? Also what other accessories would i need ? I read somewhere about the training landing gear they use to avoid crashes ?

Thanks to everyone for sharing their views.

-Gaurav

Welcome... our first plane to heli convert on RC India 

Here are some notes.  I tend to number everything so that we can discuss point by point later on.

1. First of all, flying helis is different from flying planes.  Except for the simple co-axial indoor ones, they require constant application of controls.  So it is highly recommended that you spend at least a few hours on the simulator, before you try flying one on the field.

2. Training gears help tremendously. 

3. It is recommended the first try be done on a buddy cord, with an experienced heli pilot to take over in case of issues.

4. If you budget permits, go for a 50 instead of a 30.  You will outgrow the 30 real quick, and the 50 is more stable.  Remember that the crash bill of a 50 will be higher than the 30.  Parts of the 50 are more readily available too.  The raptor 50 seems to be the gold standard for beginners in India. The smaller the heli, the harder it is to control.  But there are many fliers I know who started with the Align Trex 450 electric helis (or its cousins like the Mini Titan, or its clones).

5. I started with normal Futaba S3003 servos. Some crashes may force you to change the servo gears, and the plastic gears tend to strip.  If your budget allows, you may go for metal gear ones. You will also need a gyro and good tail servo.  A Futaba 401 is recommended, with a S9254 tail servo. Your 10C is more than ready for handling any type of heli.

6. Flying helis require the constant adjustment of rudder control.  The biggest difference between flying a plane and a heli is that you pretty much need rudder to turn (while on a plane, you can fly with ailerons alone for turning).

7. Most importantly, be careful.  These things can kill.  They are much more dangerous than airplanes.  A 50 size blade (about 600mm long) spinning at around 1800rpm is no joke.

8. Get the heli with built by someone, or take the help of an expert while setting it up.  Length of linkage rods, alignment of parts, correctness of angles etc are much more important in helis, as compared to planes. There are so many small parts too, which adds to the complexity and risk.  Yet you see the hardcore 3D fliers cause them to move in ways that cannot be imagined for airplanes.  So done right, it is all good and a heck lot of fun !

9. Unless you are careful and have practiced on the sim, you will crash. And crashing a heli is in general much more expensive than crashing an airplane and may discourage you quickly (I have seen many fliers try helis and quickly go back to airplanes).  But they all continue to look at heli fliers with some awe, especially after the heli guys have progressed to some level of 3D flying.  You can do much more with helis, as they have more axes of freedom.

Welcome to the club (although I started with helis from the very first day itself).

Thanks Anwar,
Yes the following features are luring me into the Heli-club :
a. I would be actually able to fly/practise much more . Ie at home/park , rather than going to airfield which is quite far away. This one is a biggie. Right now i rarely fly more than once a week, but i imagine that with a heli, i can at least practise at home twice a week.
b. Heli would be easier to transport - So i could take it along when i travel.
c. Need to learn something new.
d. Want to use the Heli functions on my 10C !

I am shortlisting the Raptor 50 with engine then, and i already have the 3004 servos, so the only things i will need is the training bars, and the gyro ? Unfortunately where i live and fly, i have no other Heli fliers to assist me in flying. However i do have Realflight Sim, and can try to learn on it.
I intend to go slow with it, and learn to fly with hoverings and gentle flying before doing the aerobatic stuff.

I will keep posting my developments here. This plan is not a very short term one, ie will take 2-3 months before i get all the necessary gear, but i will post everything i do with pictures on this forum.

Wish me luck !
Gaurav

If your primary intention is to fly at home or in a nearby park, then a 50 size may be an overkill.  You might want to consider something smaller.  Actually electric would be ideal for your situation, but since you want to do glow any ways, I guess that is not an option.

From the transportation angle also, a smaller heli would make more sense, and it here where electric shines !  Nothing needed except heli, charged batteries and radio.  No starter etc.

I also started with RealFlight, and it will work great. Only recently I got another one with better heli performance, named Phoenix.

You will need to the gyro, tail servo, a starter shaft (assuming you have a starter for your glow planes already, instead of just using a chicken stick).  Also, for setup, you will need a pitch guage (you can almost get around this one by trial and error).

All the best !

4. You have the following option if buying in India in the order of increasing cost. Electrics have better power to weight ratio than the nitros in this list. But the small electrics are less stable as Anwar said, so go with the biggest one you can afford. The 500 size electric is the sweet spot now considering size vs battery cost. The battery costs are also coming down, I'll soon be testing some batteries that costed just over Rs2k in my Atom soon.

Mini Titan
Trex 450
Atom 500
Raptor 30
Raptor 50 (plastic parts)
Knight 3D (metal parts)
Raptor 50 (metal parts)

You won't be able to do much other than hovering with any of these in a park. If space is a problem then go with an electric heli. I was trying the walkera 4G3 the other day. That thing is almost crash proof. But being small it was very unstable and not good for precise manoeuvers. It is great for limited spaces, but the instability might frustrate you. Even hovering is nowhere near as stable as a mini titan.

Now time for a shameless plug for our heli here. Look at this if you need a heli that'll take you from a beginner to advanced without needing any upgrades. Other helis becomes costlier when upgrades are added to make it comparable to our stock model.

Here is a video of raptor 30 to show what it is capable of.



But don't be mislead, it takes Alan Szabo to fly a 30 like that. We'll bog the engine trying far simpler moves. An expert flier can make a heli look like it is more powerful than in the hands of a lesser pilot. A 50 nitro or electric is a better choice unless limited by budget.


5. I have seen one person crashing because of 3003 servo failed in the heli. Not surprising since this is a standard 3kg servo with no ball bearing. I avoid this servo even for 46 size planes since you can get a BB servo for almost the same price. Futaba S3001 is rated for helis, but again use only if you are on a very tight budget. You'll need to change soon as you progress. You could look at metal gear ones like Hitec 645. This is already getting costly so you might as well stretch a bit more and get a proper digital servo. Align DS610 is good bang for the buck. Or there is Futaba 9252 which was everybody's favourite just a few years back. I have also used Ace DS1213 and it has been serving me very well.

GY401 is adequate until you start 3D. I get blow outs on backward flight, but there are videos online where they seem to perform better. It's probably the vibration levels or the pilot skill covering up for the gyro. You can also look at better gyros like JR 770, logictec 6100, Ace TG7000 or at higher cost range Spartan 760 and GY520.

You'll need the following to complete the heli.

Engine
Muffler
Gyro + tail servo
3 x Cyclic/Collective and 1x throttle servo
blade holder

optional:
governer

Field/Setup equipment
---------------------
Pitch gauge
Heli starter shaft
nitro proof fuel tank (nitro fuel eats some plastic containers)

8. My advice would be to go with a ARF or an already setup used heli. If you have somebody local to help you with the build, then you can look at kit options. Just look at the MINI TITAN thread here to see how difficult it is to figure out silly issues with help over the net. The owner has already gone through so much stress and time and he hasn't even started getting into real build issues yet. I admire Anwar's patience and drive to help a newbie in that thread.

Even I am not sure if I had 3003s or 3001s or 3004s, it came as a package deal from http://www.rc-expert.com . Gotta dig up the remaining replacement servo gears to confirm.

In any case, better servos are preferred, although I have seen many beginners flying with the Futaba 300x servos.  The important thing is to check after even any small crashes.  Even if one tooth of the servo gear is missing, do not fly until that is fixed.  If one ignores such aspects and takes things for granted, be ready for a costly kiss of the ground.

Thanks everyone. I will be going in for a Raptor50. But will take a month or so for me to get into this.
Meanwhile, i intend to spend time with my RealFlight Simulator.
Please provide me with tips on what to practise. I believe hoverings is what i should try ?
Right now i have my heli all over the place when i lift off. But after an hour or so at the siumulator, i was much better. Maybe i should try to stick to the sim and get my hoverings perfect before moving on ?
One big difference i notice right away in flying planes and helis is that helis seem to require constant stick movements to keep them in place. With an airplane it was like point and go !

Let me know the best approach to practise helis

-Gaurav

Since it is an interesting topic in itself, let us take the "heli practice using simulator" as a separate thread :

http://www.rcindia.org/helis/how-to-properly-practise-for-heli-flight-on-a-simulator/

Rajesh - 

What is the approximate "kit" only price difference between the TT Raptor 50 Titan and the Compass Knight 50 3D ?

Also how would you rate the crash costs of both ?

I wonder if getting a metal upgraded Knight would be a better option for Gaurav, since it is pretty much a life long heli, while it is quite common for people to outgrow the Raptor (long term).

Good question Anwar,
Raptor 50 and Knight 50 are options for me to go in for. I would need to know the difference between then in terms of :
a. Availability of spares ( Very important )
b. Cost of spares
c. Build quality/Durability ( since i will be learning, most likely there will be hard landings etc )
d. Flying characteristics - should be suitable for learning. I am not sure i will outgrow a heli so soon .. most likely this would be a training heli, and later i may go in for a an advanced model ( like with airplanes )

Would be good to hear views from RotorZone and others.
-Gaurav

If you planning for a step-by-step progression, then the decision is easy, just go with the Raptor for now.

Anwar,
Ok. I have been giving some time on the simulator and it seems that it has been helping me ( i seem to be getting better at hoverings now ) . Do you have a Realflight sim ? if so, i could make a recording and send it to you for comments.

In your opinion Raptor 50 would be a better buy than Raptor 30 ? or should i go in for the smaller 30 one for training .. ? Most likely i would get it from Rotor, which has better spare part availability ?

Thanks !
Gaurav

I just loaned out my RealFlight sim to someone on this forum who is getting started    So it would be out of my hands for some time. But it shouldn't matter, just progress like I outlined, and you should be fine.  You can always make a Youtube video and post it here 

If you are using training skids, then the Raptor 30 would also work OK, is what I feel.  Like RotorZone and I said before, a Raptor 50 is more stable, but if you are careful, and take things slowly with enough practice on the sim, then a Raptor 30 should do the trick.  Since you are planning to progress to something else, keep the costs low (the smaller one should be easier on the pocket).

There was a Thunder Tiger dealer in Bangalore (I think his name is Avinash), who had good parts availability.  RotorZone, please confirm.  Get quotes from him and Rotor-Chennai, and go for the better deal.  With Raptors, part availability should not be a problem (and I think the 50 parts are more plentiful than the 30 parts).

A bunch of updates have happened on this thread since my last post. I'll try to answer the questions one by one.

First of all the comparison between Raptor 50 Titan and Knight 3D. There are fundamental differences between the two helis like the raptor being mCCPM and knight is eCCPM so the comparison is not very straightforward. However I'll list down the major differences between the two kits.

The Raptor comes with the following parts which are not present in Knight 3d kit
1. Wooden blades
2. Muffler
3. Header tank

Knight 3D has the following parts in metal while it is plastic in Raptor
1. Head block
2. stabilizer control set
3. Washout base
4. belt guide pulley (two of them)
5. elevator arm

Accounting for the cost of the two lists above, Knight 3D comes out over 4k cheaper. I took the raptor prices from one of the popular online stores, you can check with your favorite store.

In addition to the above there are some parts which are not common upgrades in Raptor and hence didn't account for. But they are important and costly upgrades if you are into 3D and also need longevity.
1. Metal bearing blocks
2. Base frame stiffener

Also Raptor needs a tail rotor hub to SUS version where are Knight does not need it. Also the tail grip has thrust bearings which the Titan doesn't have.

One of the other things I like is the metal base for the autorotation gear. If you have assembled a raptor you'd noticed that this part is plastic in raptor and it is very easy to tighten it too much and distort the gear. Being metal, there is no distortion in a Knight.

Regarding parts availability, I get that question a lot. I think I should post a picture of the parts stock to allay these concerns. The way they are stored now is not very photogenic, I've been planning to change and take a pic for a while now. Parts prices are comparable to TT, there are odd parts that are priced lower or higher, but on an average they are about the same. It was one of the conditions of Compass for us to carry parts to take up the distributorship. Being fliers ourselves, we didn't need much of convincing on that one.

Crash costs are again similar. The skids are mounted on a landing gear mount in Knight. On a hard crash, this breaks off saving the frame. The G10 frame is pretty strong as it is.

These are all static differences, but the real clincher is the way Knight flies. There is less sluggishness and this gives a more connected feeling. Also it is hard to define it, but it feels truer in flying, ie does what you want it to do with little corrections needed.

This might look like a one sided review, but they are all facts that can be easily cross verified. After all we have both Knight and Raptor in stock. Also I'd welcome your views on both models.  The differences are mainly due to the market the kits were intended for. The 50 Titan is targeted at beginners and Knight 3D for those who also want to take it to advanced levels. The inclusion of wooden blade and a muffler that you'll need to upgrade soon are indications of the market Titan is targeted at. Compass has left out these items which most fliers will not use anyway.

As for training in RF, I think the one where you have hover in one location for some time and then they make you move to a new location and hover there was a pretty good one as the first step. It teaches you to hold the model steady and also moving it and getting it to stop in a hover again.

Oh, I did not know you stocked Raptors and their parts too   

There is no mention on your website, or I missed it.

good to hear about the Knight 3D . Rotorzone, i suggest that you list all the spares you stock on your website. that is what all other stores do, and goes a long way in reassuring new customers like me .

So, in your opinion, is the Knight 3D 50 good for an absolute beginner ? I do not really care about moving to advanced stuff, since most likely ill get a new one for that . But i do need very good/easy characteristics, that would help in in my early days.
BTW what engine does the Knight 3D use ?

regarding Raptor, please let me know what all you stock, as nothing is mentioned on your website.

Anwar, i need some help again. RotorSports do not have a Raptor 50 with a engine in stock, and without an engine + a new OS 50 would cost me 10K more expensive than Raptor 30. Unless i am convinced with Knight 3D , do you think i should go in for the Raptor 30 ?
Is the Raptor 50's performance/stability  much better compared to the 30 , or rather to justify the 10k difference ? If so i would invest in something good and get the 50, else, if raptor 30 would be good enough, i would use it for learning, and then get the 50 and others later.

Thanks !
Gaurav

First of all, I love the notify feature of the forum, I get emailed as soon as someone makes new posts on the forum 

To the raptor 30 versus raptor 50 question, if this is a short/medium term learning heli, go with the 30.  IMHO, if the price difference between the 30 and 50 is less than 5K, go with the 50.

RotorZone.com is our distributor  website, that is why there is Compass models listed there. We are importer and distributor for Compass and dealer for TT. Our retail website is under development, it'll be launched soon. For TT, even if we don't have something in stock, the distributor is just a hop away. So we can supply anything the distributor has in stock.

Regarding Knight 3D for beginners there is nothing that makes it unsuitable, it is just that a beginner may not appreciate the difference between a Titan and a Knight 3D. The stability in hovering of a properly setup Raptor or Knight is very good and similar. If the responsiveness of Knight feels intimidating, the throws can be reduced and expo used to make it milder. In my opinion 30% expo and standard throws are a good starting point. It is down to personal preference. As an analogy to plane flying people used to suggest electric model with rudder and elevator for beginners. I tried it that way and with ailerons, for me faster response of the ailerons felt better. I'd actually prefer quick responding model to a sluggish model. Do not confuse between quick crisp response and squirelliness. It is not like small electric models that does 80% of what you ask and 20% it has a mind of its own. Since you are modeler with experience there should not be the problem of over controlling, so my guess is that the crisp response will be more appreciated.

With a Knight 3D you don't need to upgrade when you move to advanced stuff. Tareq's video on our web site is of a stock Knight 3D. If that flight doesn't convince you of the capability of Knight, I don't know what will.

OS50 hyper fits Knight perfect. I'm using TT53 in my Knight. You need to do a little bit of grinding of one part to fit TT53.

Do you have anybody local to help you with assembling a kit ?

One other thing that I forgot to mention is that Knight comes 80% assembled from the factory. In Raptor series, 30 is available as a RTF package that includes even the radio. 50 Titan is in kit form.

Just saw this video .. What do you think happened here ?

Even though this is an extreme case, it is not very unusual for helicopters to end up like this 

There are many triggers; like a link coming loose in the head, tilting on the ground or a hard landing causing the blades or the tail to hit the ground, canopy coming loose etc.  What follows is that the blades hit the tail, and parts start flying.  I have had a Trex 450 do that mid air, with parts flying all over, when the canopy came loose.

"Boom strike" is something that you hope you don't have to utter often in the heli world !

Have a question.
can glow helis be flown without nitro in the glow fuel? Electrics with increase in size to to get xpensive so was thinking the glow way.

Yes, I have at least one friend who flies with 0% nitro (no nitro at all); at least occassionally.  If you have a good engine that you have tuned well to perform (in terms of rpm needed by whichever heli you are flying), it will work; at least for normal flying.

So it is perfectly possible, but many times not appreciated.  With helis, both the main rotor head-speed and the related tail-rotor speed are important factors in terms of stability and smooth flying.  And adding nitro helps with extracting better performance from the engines.  This is particularly important when you get into sport or 3D flying.

Thx once again Anwar for replying.why i asked is bcouse its hard to find nitro here.moreover im just about starting in helis so its normal flight for now.
Compass knight,trex 600 nitro or raptor 50.which one is the one to go after?pls suggest.

Knight of course

What is your skill level now ? I guess you are already flying a mini titan ? If you are just hovering different orientations and moving around in FF, then no nitro is fine. Even flips, rolls and loops could be done. But you'll feel underpowered in anything more than this, even continuous flips are difficult when you are a beginner and not good at managing the collective. If you are not going to be able to source nitro later as well, you should go electric. The 50 size nitro helis do not have the power to weight ratio and will struggle without nitro. You could go electric, but the 600 size gets expensive for the batteries. The 500 size electrics have the power to weight ratio similar to that of a 90 nitro and batteries don't break the bank.