ADMIN NOTE:  This topic was started as a continuation of http://www.rcindia.org/chatter-zone/double-or-triple-fun-with-just-packing-tape




Fantastic , Why is it that such innovative ideas are only for us to admire and clap for ?

Looking forward to the day when we will have our own desi innovators and unusual thinkers .

Wondering  we always write , talk about new RC exploits from the Info abroad .
We also build great planes to plans down loaded from abroad ?

Any reason we don't  do it ourselves with our own ideas , are we just great followers ?
Is it that we can improve and do the best we can what others have already done ?

What would it take for us to innovate and try on our own ?

These are just thoughts I am sharing as in all these 5or 6 K posts I don't remember seeing even a single Original design , concept OR trial  ( I hope  I am wrong ) .
We have  done many things in this short life  of this forum but I feel original innovation is one that is not very evident .

It is the same thing always a whole lot  is written about  quoting  from various on line resources  extensively , arguing points and counter points etc BUT THINK  WHAT PERCENTAGE OF ALL THESE MANY POSTS IS ORIGINAL  

What is the major difference between RCG , RCUNIVERSE , Wattflyer  and such forum's and RC India ?

I have been thinking of this for the past few days  and my opinion is those forums are resources of originality while we are a resources of collection of information of those resources WE ARE MIRROR FORUM .

This is my opinion , I took a break from here for a few days  to get away from all our arguments and points of view and  was looking at it as an outsider  and frankly   did not find anything  very interesting in the past three days  from the originality point of view ,

THE SAME OLD RADIO ARGUMENTS INVOLVING 2.4 , SALES OF PRODUCTS , HOBBY CITY AND OTHER  HOBBY SHOPS TALK , SOME ARTICLES ON OTHER TOPICS AGAIN QUOTING ON LINE SOURCES ETC   .
EG .
IN 6426 POSTS PLEASE POINT ME OUT TO ONE PLAN FOR A PLANE

Guys don't get me wrong as is normally the case  but I thought to make the forum more meaningful and raise it  from its present  gathering which is more like a group friends  sitting around at a coffee shop we need to  make an effort to move it to a higher level  and make it  on the lines of RCG  , RCU etc we all need to think differently from what we are doing now.

I CHOSE THIS THREAD TO VOICE THIS BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT OUR ACHIEVEMENT THIS IS THE ONLY THREAD THAT SHOWED  INNOVATION IN the past week  .

ANWAR HAS BEEN PUTTING UP THESE VIDEOS I ASSUME TO SHOW CASE INNOVATIONS IN RC .

I am sorry if I upset  some people with this observation  and I hope it will be taken in the right spirit

Sai

Quote from: rcforall on September 20, 2009, 09:16:23 PM
What would it take for us to innovate and try on our own ?

That is a good question, and something worth pondering by everyone 

I have no clue about others, but I know my answer is that I have no time to get in that deep.  There are times when I even  handover an ARF foamy kit to be assembled by the guys at the local hobby shop.  At the very least, I want to keep flying.  I would be more than satisfied if I can go to the field once a week and just get a few flights in (and spend part of the time helping others with their stuff). There might as well be times in the future where I can pursue more of the building/design aspects of this hobby; but for now, just flying is more than enough for me !

It is a lame excuse, but it is also the absolute reality (for now).

Anwar ,
Most will have the same reply I am sure  , but it is not that those guys in Europe and US are sitting around with time hanging around , they find time to do these things .
If you look beyond RC you will find a similar scenario as far as we are concerned .
EG
Take the case of say the IT sector with which you are associated  who are the major clients for our IT sector : US and Europe right : we systematize their ideas and convert their ideas into codes and software , but the basic innovative idea is theirs which we put into a systematic form , again I might be wrong but this is my understanding  

I wonder if we can do this  for a living then why don't we attempt to innovate and create  as a hobby like how those guys do ?

I am saying this as I find even youngsters don't try anything  that is not tried before . We replicate what others have done elsewhere .

I am discussing this as I feel aero modeling  allows you to try new ideas and concepts but I don't find it being used here to do that .

Frankly it did not take  much to try the MOSS concept and turn it into a winning glider , neither did it take too much time or effort for Venkat to create the pipe dream and turn it into a fast plane  
http://www.rcindia.org/self-designed-diy-and-college-projects/pipe-dream-pylon-racer(very-fast)/msg1009/#msg1009

Had our share of  failures like the Micro wave Coanda , a Pusher jet called Geometrics etc  but the the time and effort in all these cases was nothing  compared to the lessons learnt .

Nor did it take too much to buy a Computer SMPS and convert it into a power supply for a 200 W charger ( not original ) .

The will to try is more important than the result out of many ideas only a few will succeed that is a fact of life .

Are we held back by the fear of failure  and admitting it  

Just a few further thoughts .
Sai

The question is "original" ideas. None of the things you described are original (the Moss etc), they have all been done by others before (whether we have seen the references or not).  And this is true of whatever field you are in.

Coming up original ideas ideas take dedication.  If you do it as a part of earning your bread, well that is great.  But doing that as a part of a hobby that takes you away from earning your livelihood, is a whole another story (and probably one with not a very happy ending).

May be there are some who also think that innovation need not be some grand discovery small steps  are also innovation , mods are also innovation etc .
I am  not talking of Grand discoveries , I am talking of even small original ideas which add value to the existing .

As for MOSS I don't claim it is original either the platform for it was 24" x 24" 2 channel slope glider without motor etc  , the originality  was only in  developing  it into a 46" x 30" Motorized Glider with polyhydrals  .

Edwin building a pusher plane like an easy star might not be an innovation but using the bottom of a sprite can for a canopy and  using a  PVC conduit for a fuse  is innovation  

Like in this Video the Slow Stick is not the innovation the Idea of flying 2 or three together is  

I  am not a grand thinker like you Anwar I prefer small steps  
sai

Quote from: anwar on September 21, 2009, 07:56:33 AM

Coming up original ideas ideas take dedication.  If you do it as a part of earning your bread, well that is great.  But doing that as a part of a hobby that takes you away from earning your livelihood, is a whole another story (and probably one with not a very happy ending).

Purely a point of view  quite possible with buy and fly types but might not find many takers among  the scratch build hobbyists we find pleasure in small mods and achievements which work out .

This Video shows that the guys have had a great time doing something no one else has  and  they are not doing it for a living

Sai

My point is, they had an original idea for putting two planes together and flying them together. The point being "original", whether they do it for a living or not.

But using alternate material is hardly any innovation, and sure as hell there must be others who have done similar things in the past. 

BTW, it was your post that was crying for lack on innovation and original ideas.  Yet everything you point out as samples of "innovation" barely qualify (if at all).  Someone uses plastic cups for canopy, someone else uses sprite can.  Not much of an original idea.  People have built foamies that are as tall as some of us, and I would consider that as some innovation. 

So you extended a hybrid of a  slowstick and some other planes into a slightly bigger size.  Big deal

Quote from: rcforall on September 21, 2009, 09:10:54 AM
Purely a point of view  quite possible with buy and fly types but might not find many takers among  the scratch build hobbyists we find pleasure in small mods and achievements which work out .

Isn't it obvious that pleasure and innovation are two different things ?

And "buy and fly" is not exactly what some people think it is.  Try assembling a 50 size (or higher) CCPM heli from a kit and setting it up properly, and tell me how easy it is compared to cutting a foamie

Well, for me, any sort of creativity will pave a way for innovation. Be it using a soda can or using a bowl for the cowl or just sticking two wings together... Anything thats just out of the ordinary is creativity and the thought process that go with it is very important.

I go with Sai on this as most of the RC flyers that I know are just "buyer and flyers"... No harm in their part, its just the way they like it. As long as everyone is happy with what they do, everything is fine.

To assemble a kit, I am sure you need some brains.. Its sort of like a jig-saw puzzle. (Yes there is tuning and other fine adjustments required). However, I would not compare that skill to build something original from the scratch. If you could make your own jig-saw puzzle and show how to assemble it, then that the sort of thing I say is real creativity that would lead to innovation.

Surely, the first foamie was an innovation, using a CF rod/tube to strengthen an airframe and lighten it too was also an innovation. Have to agree here that even a slightly different way of doing things is innovation. I mean you don't have to invent something altogether new all the time.

Quote from: anwar on September 21, 2009, 07:56:33 AM
The question is "original" ideas. None of the things you described are original (the Moss etc), they have all been done by others before (whether we have seen the references or not).  And this is true of whatever field you are in.

Coming up original ideas ideas take dedication.  If you do it as a part of earning your bread, well that is great.  But doing that as a part of a hobby that takes you away from earning your livelihood, is a whole another story (and probably one with not a very happy ending).

hello,
Not at all to claim any credit but just thought of this when i read this post.
This bird cage is part of a small tree stucture having a small swing with birs and also  other birds etc. The cuckoo beaks are reynold pen caps. The movning part is the CDROM opt drive salvaged. Acutators are hand wound. The cuckoo sound is from the wav file downloaded from internet and programmed in to a sound chip. The whole thing is controlled through a PIC micro.


pls comment
ashta

Astha   ,
This  is a great bit of ingenuity and innovation. We need more and many more of such projects
Precisely  this is the kind of thing I was talking about .
The Idea is what is important and  applying yourself to converting the Idea to reality is what I was trying to get like minds thinking on .

If some one cannot do do something due to various compulsions it does not mean no one else can .

My posts was  an appeal to those who can and are willing to try , it was meant to  awaken those who can and are willing to try in any small which way they can .

Those who can't so be it they can continue to be spectators and benefit from the experiences of those who can.

Sai

sai

Quote from: tg on September 21, 2009, 04:08:32 PM
Surely, the first foamie was an innovation, using a CF rod/tube to strengthen an airframe and lighten it too was also an innovation. Have to agree here that even a slightly different way of doing things is innovation. I mean you don't have to invent something altogether new all the time.

I agree with you totally that the first foamie etc are innovations.  And I also believe that  making a foamie with a 2m wingspan is also an innovation.  But building a foamie that has 48inch wingspan when others had only 38inches or using coro instead of foam, I would never put it in the same class. 

Neither would using bamboo sticks instead of CF rods.  If someone made a plane completely out of bamboo, that would be borderline. In general substituting locally available material is not something I would call innovation. Again, these are all just one person's opinions.

These are baby steps to innovation (as Ismail pointed out), but not the passionate level of innovation that I felt in the initial post by Sai. 

And the vast majority wants to fly much more than they want to build.

Now let me go innovate by coming up with a cool new heli flying maneuver (instead of suffering through any more of this trash talk  on how "only builders are innovators"   )

PS: Atul - I tried to get Sai into a verbal dual on something other than radios, and he chickened out using the lame excuse of sensitivity.  I have got him to participate in this one !  Anybody who wants to gang up with me ?  I see Ismail already joined the other team, so I am looking for some talented team mates !

hahaha.. man anwar you can really strike a conversation and how i must say...

About the talented lot am not sure about that but yes i will try my level best...

Regarding this "discussion" i agree with you anwar, majority of people want to fly and not build.. But every person I believe in this hobby builds a spad sooner or later..

Cannot sum up the entire discussion in some words but doing something different or never tried before would be an innovation but needs a creative mind for sure..

Would be real good to see some nice innovations from our friends here..

tats my two cents..

cheers

atul g.

Quote from: izmile on September 21, 2009, 03:23:34 PM
Well, for me, any sort of creativity will pave a way for innovation. Be it using a soda can or using a bowl for the cowl or just sticking two wings together... Anything thats just out of the ordinary is creativity and the thought process that go with it is very important.

Izmile,

Your statement that any sort of creativity will pave a way for innovation is partly true. We all tend to be creative when we do not get the exact material we are looking for. We are purely looking at alternative to reach a pre-defined goal - maybe from a different route.

However, personally, I would define innovation at a more conceptual level when we begin to challenge the established concepts itself. Like for example someone thought about bird like flapping wings - its called Ornithopter or something. Challenging the established concepts require an elaborate knowledge about the subject itself. Case in point, the transition to VTOL from 'normal' aircraft or the orithopter could not have come with just and passion and no knowledge physics.

I would not think many of us have that in us or know the subject well enough to begin to think in a different direction. Some/most might be top end IIT engineers but not all (like self). Hence folks like us - we tend to follow someone else and are quite happy to do so...

Pankaj

The first steps of Innovation start with small mods or alternatives it is from these small steps that larger concepts evolve . You start thinking differently on small matters like material etc.

By the Way I know Nandakumar who is the first person  in India to make the ornithopter :



Nither is he an engineer nor an IIT graduate , but today he is a resource person for IIT's as far as Ornithopter and Quad rotors are concerned , if you ask him he also says the habit of trying out new ideas is cultivated  .


sai

Wow, thats indeed an achievement.... .

Kudos Mr.Nandakumar ..  Considering the lack of resources in india BUT the will to achieve drives people to cross many boundaries..

Check this guy out he has installed a camera on front of an easy star and actually sees where he is going in the air..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/erbalite/

As much as we are appreciative of this effort, it does go back to the basic question you raised.  How much of this was indigenous ?  What were Mr Nandakumar's resources in building this ?  How much reliance was there on outside references ? I hope it is NONE, and it is 100% his design.

I am just trying to illustrate the point that having something uncommon may not immediately translate into "innovation".

Quote from: atul_pg on September 22, 2009, 08:30:24 AM

Check this guy out he has installed a camera on front of an easy star and actually sees where he is going in the air..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/erbalite/

Atul ,
That is what is FPV about 
Sai

Quote from: atul_pg on September 22, 2009, 08:30:24 AM
Wow, thats indeed an achievement.... .

Kudos Mr.Nandakumar ..   Considering the lack of resources in india BUT the will to achieve drives people to cross many boundaries..

This was achieved at a time when Brushless Motors were not available in India  and resources at that time were difficult to come by.

The best I liked was the use of a cloth line to test the trust 

It is only when you develop the habit of thinking of various things around you that can be converted to flying objects do you learn to innovate one step at a time  you got to learn to walk before you run.

Sai

I am completely aware of what an fpv means mr.sai  . I was just sharing that guy's interest towards different technologies..

In Btwn saw some weird innovations on youtube..chk it out..

  .

If that was your intention Atul that is great 

BTW, if anyone feels that this thread is just a fun thread because I am inciting Sai, let me make it clear that I am dead serious about the issue being discussed.  

For one, I do not agree at all that building is the only form where one can show case innovation. There can be lots of innovation in flying itself.  

I also find it hard to digest when it is said (or implied) that scratch building or building in general is the gist of aeromodeling, and flying abilities do not really matter.  I feel 75% of RC enthusiasts are in it just for flying. The ones who go the extra mile by scratch building deserve extra kudos for their efforts, but that is not reason enough to look down on others who do not.

Comments ?

Quote from: atul_pg on September 22, 2009, 09:41:26 AM
In Btwn saw some weird innovations on youtube..chk it out..

Great finds Atul   

The guy has a middle-eastern accent.

Quote from: anwar on September 22, 2009, 10:00:45 AM

For one, I do not agree at all that building is the only form where one can show case innovation. There can be lots of innovation in flying itself.  

Comments ?

No One said so those who are great flyers go ahead and innovate new routines , improve on an existing routine or style , who know discover 5 D in flying etc , but remember even a small original change by you is an innovation  

All I am saying is don't be limited by what has been done till date any where else in the world keep an open mind and try to improve on what is done in your own small way

Anwar ,
Don't be complexed by us builders we normally are not great flyers .
Sai

Quote from: anwar on September 22, 2009, 10:03:24 AM

Quote from: atul_pg on September 22, 2009, 09:41:26 AM
In Btwn saw some weird innovations on youtube..chk it out..

Great finds Atul    

The guy has a middle-eastern accent.

Have a look at the guy's site  this is innovation  
His tagline says it all
Great Ideas to use as platforms
http://www.haddadrc.com/

Seems to be a Jordanian or Palestinian .



Sai