The propeller is such a key component of any power system either electric or glow or gas but in my observation as a seller the least understood .
a) I normally have buyers spend a lot of time and effort selecting Motor's , ESC's batteries etc but when it comes to the propeller the standard situation is what ever you think suits this set up please give that .
b)We all talk very easily of VPP 4 D set up how does the plane move in the opposite direction without the motor changing directions ? The answer is the Prop .
c)In the case of a glow plane all know that the engine efficiency which is as it is below 50 % drops drastically with the wrong prop ?
d) If you see the data sheet of a 2205 motor ( been trying to enclose a PDF file but it is too heavy so did the best I could attached a picture in JPG ) the same motor can be used to vary the thrust from 242 gms till 570 gms just by choice of Prop .
Looking at all these scenarios I thought why not try to see how well we regular aero modelers understand the prop :
Question
In the case of a 10 x 6 prop all of us know the number 10 means 10 " dia , what do we understand by the number 6 which means the pitch ???
Looking forward to answers on this
Sai
PS : THE FACT THAT A PROPELLER IS GIVEN LEAST IMPORTANCE IS OBVIOUS FROM THE FACT THAT IN THE RC EQUIPMENT SECTION OF THIS FORUM THE WORD IT SELF DOES NOT APPEAR ANYWHERE .
COULD WE FLY ANY TYPE OF POWERED AIRCRAFT OR PROPEL EVEN A BOAT FOR THAT MATTER WITHOUT THIS KEY COMPONENT .
BTW THE HELI'S ROTOR OR THE EDF'S FAN ARE BOTH BASICALLY PROPELLERS
;) ;D
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS TO BUILD A KIND OF AN ONLINE RESOURCE + TUTORIAL IN UNDERSTANDING THIS LEAST UNDERSTOOD COMPONENT SO ALL THOSE WHO CAN ADD VALUE PLEASE DO PITCH ;) :D :D IN
Hint the answer lies in the word "Propeller"
Anwar ,
If and once this builds up you could convert it into a Wiki
Good Question Mr. Sai, {:)} {:)} {:)} {:)}
Its has two latin words, Pro-peller, PRO - forward and backward, PELLER - to Drive, in simple-A WAY TO MOVE AN OBJECT THROUGH TE AIR. In simple terms, Pitch is a virtual form of automobile Gears, which is used to generate power out of the wind to control the production of power. Low pitch = good low speed acceleration and high pitch = high speed performance.
Sorry i understood this through wikipedia only.
Sandeep
Guys ,
This is key to understanding the logic of using a low pitch prop for 3 D and slo-fly applications and a high pitch prop for fast flying like jets . Why is the heli rotor quite flat with a relatively low picth and why are EDF fans relatively high pitched.
Yes Sandeep but what does pitch mean ? and how is its variation used in powered flight ?
The Meaning of the word mentioned by you also provides the answer to this question
Sai
Come on guys the idea is make this thread interactive .
What do you understand by pitch ??? ??? ??
Sai
Pitch is the "angle of attack" of the blades. The more angle they have, the faster they throw air back/down, resulting in faster flight. But the more the pitch, the less the thrust; so for 3D flights where thrust is more important, a lower pitch is actually desired.
Heli rotors are not flat. They are designed to increase the angle of attack (ie pitch) as the throttle is increased (as can be seen in the video below).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJDM3k-_BeY
Nope, nope - propeller pitch is the distance that the propeller moves along an axis in one complete turn of the propeller. Depending on the "twist" in the blades of the propeller the propeller may be low pitch - low angle of attack (if you can call it that) and high pitch. The higher the pitch the more difficult to turn the propeller I suppose and vice versa.
Hi Guys,
Something I picked off the net!!
Pitch is the measured of the length of the cylinder of air thus moved by the prop in one complete revolution, assuming 100% efficiency. It therefore gives a theoretical speed for the model, for any rpm. But not all glowfuel props have the same efficiency, some are less than 50% efficient. So for example in these cases theoretical speed = rpm x pitch x 50%
So if you have a 10 x 6 prop on a .40 engine, your model will go faster if you change the prop to a 10 x 7.
Or it will accellerate faster with an 11 x 6, but have the same top speed.
This depends on the engine having spare capacity enabling it to run at the same rpm as before, even though you have increased the load on it.
- Chan
Quote from: tg on July 16, 2009, 01:20:59 PM
Nope, nope - propeller pitch is the distance that the propeller moves along an axis in one complete turn of the propeller. Depending on the "twist" in the blades of the propeller the propeller may be low pitch - low angle of attack (if you can call it that) and high pitch. The higher the pitch the more difficult to turn the propeller I suppose and vice versa.
"Nope" ?!?!?! We are both saying the same thing, so I am not sure what the "nope" means :o
Or is it because it is the "definition" versus "layman terms explanation" ? Or is it directed to some other post earlier in the thread ?
The propeller acts like a "screw" moving forward (pulling) as it turns. Some older books refer to a propeller as the "airscrew". Remember, the pitch of a screw way back in physics?? A propeller is simply that.
TG you hit the nail on the head here is an illustration .
Now this explains the difference between a slow fly and a speed prop .
For 3D and slowfly we need less distance to be traveled , so reduced speed per unit time and for fast flying we need more distance to be traveled per unit time .This is one of the reasons for choosing a lower pitch for 3 D and higher pitch for pusher jets
I guess this explains roughly the choice of the prop
In the illustration X is the prop dia and Y is what TG has mentioned .
Sai
Although I know the answer, why not do 3D with a high pitch blade running slower ? ;D
You got a valid point.
Lower input voltage will reduce total RPM which at the end of the day is determined by the KV so you can use a higher pitched prop .
Eg 8 x 4 prop will move 4 " of the air column of 8" Dia hence if you use a 7.4V cell and a 11.1V cell on a 1000 KV Motor you the RPM will be around around 6500 in case of the 7.4 and 10500 in case of 11.1V assuming efficiency loss . Hence theoretically for 1 rotation you move 4 " hence you can calculate the difference in air flow in both cases .
Now increase the pitch ie distance of air travel as you say to an 6" or 8" prop and there you can see the diff. yourself
This precisely the reason the same motor with different props gives such a wide range of thrust.
I am not a technical guy like many of you so I may be wrong , please correct me if I am wrong
Sai
TG,
You nailed it down. The pitch figures that you see in propellers is the "distance" travelled by the propeller in one complete rotation, when you spin it in a perfectly ideal medium (like cheese or butter).
Now for Anwar's question. Yes you can get the same amount of thrust with high pitch props spinning slower but then any variation in prop speed will be amplified by the larger prop pitch. IOW, throttle reponse would be coarse. For more finer throttle control you would require lower pitched props. So, in 3D you almost always go for lower pitch props.
If you are looking for faster moving plane then go for higher pitched props. The reason is quite self explainatory.
If you need more thrust from your prop, increase the diameter of the prop - NOT the pitch of the prop. I am sure there would be some questions on this. Anyway, for 3D you obviously require good thrust and finer throttle control and so you choose a larger dia prop with a lower pitch.
-Ismail
To further what Ismail says, we have to also consider that a lower pitch prop has it highest efficiency at a lower speed than a high pitched prop. We have to keep in mind that during 3D, the thrust of the prop directly balances the auw of the plane and therefore has a higher slip...
Much like a fine pitch screw thread to a coarse pitch screw thread
Saju
Quote from: izmile on July 16, 2009, 02:19:32 PM
If you need more thrust from your prop, increase the diameter of the prop - NOT the pitch of the prop. I am sure there would be some questions on this. Anyway, for 3D you obviously require good thrust and finer throttle control and so you choose a larger dia prop with a lower pitch.
-Ismail
I was considering the case where the diameter remains the same, as we were discussing pitch only.
It is easier for any power-system to turn a lower pitch prop than a higher pitch one of the same dia (for electrics, that means lower amps draw).
Anwar ,
Just to clarify we are not talking only about pitch what I was trying to get people to understand the prop as such and especially the pitch in particular as I have found that this is major grey area for most modelers .
Most take all the trouble in choosing the airframe , power system , servos , radio etc but when it comes to the prop which is a key component of propulsion they simply don't take any effort what so ever in understanding why they are using a specific prop in most cases it is trail and error in arriving at the prop or some thumb rule experience of someone else .
So I thought it would be worthwhile to get people to understand the prop better .
I kept pointing the pitch earlier as that is one of the least understood funda's .Many will quote figures like 10 x 6 , 13 x 8 etc but I have found there are very few who actually know what the second figure actually means , I would hazard a guess that around 60- 70 % of the aero modelers don't know what it is and why they choose a particular PROP.
Sai
I do not think people take props lightly on purpose. Some factors that contribute to this are :
1. They feel they can experiment with it, and settle on one later on.
2. They are cheap, unlike other stuff (so it helps with [1] above).
3. There aren't any real hard rules, even motor manuals come with ranges (as it sort of depends on type of flying).
What you say may be true but knowing the fundamentals of how it works helps one better arrive at an informed guess ;D
Surprising that the angle of attack of high pitch props and prop stall hasn't been brought into the discussion yet. If you run a higher pitch prop slower to move the same air column, beyond some pitch the prop will stall. This will just waste energy in opposing the air rather than moving it.
The relative angle of attack changes when the prop is moving. The effective pitch reduces as the prop moves faster. This is why high pitch props are used in faster planes and EDFs. Where as low pitch props just stop producing thrust once the plane moves closer to the pitch speed.
This is also the reason why static thrust measurements of high pitch props don't give real values. As the prop unloads with speed, the motor load decreases. If the pitch was high enough for the prop to stall, you'll also see the actual thrust increasing more than the static thrust once the plane is moving. This is easily observable in EDFs and turbines.
Keep it coming .
Rajesh , could this angle be explained in a bit more details preferably with an example as some of the points mentioned by you went over my head ??? . a bit of layman's explanation would help guys like me ;D ;D. I am surely learning here
eg what do you mean by prop stalls
sai
Sorry had to write it short since I was short of time.
The thrust from a prop is not just from the angle of the blade, but also from the airfoil shape. Once you start thinking of a blade as an airfoil, the stall will make sense. It exactly same as stalling of the wing that we are all familiar with. As the angle of attack increases the wing or the prop in this case stalls and it is no longer generating the lift/thrust.
You asked for example so do this silly experiment (I'm sure you'll understand this without doing it). Take a flat plate (a flat plate is also an airfoil) in your hand and spin around holding it horizontal. Now increase the angle of attack slowly. You will feel the lift. But as the angle of attack increases beyond a point, you'll feel the lift decreasing, but you are spending a lot of energy just opposing the air. This is what happens with a high pitch prop on a slow plane. As the plane moves faster, the effective angle of attack decreases and the prop will start generating thrust again.
Here is an explanation on props: pitch and dia and all: quite a long video but very enlightening for a beginner from around 2.30 mins onwards. dave rocks!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7gJ3SvD9ks
The Video is cool and explains in a simple way what this thread was started of to do in the first place .
Thanks that is valuable.
In fact I liked he said that a Heli blade as such has a low pitch and an EDF or Boat prop are the other extreme I think this has been mentioned some where in the thread earlier.
It also hits quite clearly that the Prop in his opinion is the most important part of the power system unlike what I have seen in my experience that everything else takes a priority and the prop is trial and error.
Most interesting is that he designs his planes around the prop :o
sai
Quote from: rcforall on July 16, 2009, 08:13:18 PM
It also hits quite clearly that the Prop in his opinion is the most important part of the power system unlike what I have seen in my experience that everything else takes a priority and the prop is trial and error.
Most interesting is that he designs his planes around the prop :o
sai
Most people (I guess everyone who do not "design" themselves) tend to experiment with props, so this is not surprising.
He mentioned 2200 KV for a 6x4, but what about the KV rating for a 10x4 ? This information would to be useful to someone ;)
For a 10 x 4 the KV rating would be around 1000KV +/- 100.
Sai
Had a practical experience with the acromaster today 11 x 4.7 was very helpful in 3D whereas 11 x 7 was not effective in 3D but gave and immense thrust.
This largely because when it covers 7 " per revolution it is not flying slow whereas in 4.7 it is better so i am now waiting for my 3.8 props .
sai
Would someone please explain what is the Pitch Speed of a Prop and what is its significance.
---Rao
Here is question I was asked couple of days ago.
Why are some electric props so flimsy that their blades can easily be bent ? Why would anyone design/build them that way ? Is it just a side effect of cost cutting or some other unintended end-result ? What technical advantage would such props have compared to a sturdy prop of same dimensions and weight ?
Probably designed to be crash / hard landing proof?! As in, when the aircraft belly lands without an undercarriage, this flimsy prop scrapes against the ground and suffers the least amount of damage. Whereas, a rigid prop would possibly snap into two. Least resistance = Least damage, I guess!
Juvenile, as usual, however that was my two penny bit!
Cheers!
You get both types :
Rigid : APC and master Airscrew : + Don't break easily - Bend the shaft on Impact more expensive
Flexible : GWS Type : + Break easily on Impact there by decimate energy and save other components especially the Motor and shaft , less expensive
- break easily hence need to carry a stock of them when going flying .
THE KEY HERE IS ENERGY DECIMATION ON IMPACT
Sai
Quote from: Rao on February 16, 2010, 12:28:46 AM
Would someone please explain what is the Pitch Speed of a Prop and what is its significance.
---Rao
Not my formula picked it up from RCG ;D :
Quote
Pitch speed = RPM x Pitch x (60/63360)
eg: 8000rpm x 6" x (60/63360) = 45.45mph
The 60/63360 converts from inches per minute to miles per hour.
Plane speed can be anywhere from ~80% to ~95% of pitch speed depending on a whole host of variables including p-factor (prop efficiency), airfoil shape, size, weight, construction materials, yada, yada, yada.
Unquote
This is a pure mathematical calculation but as mentioned variables in flight will affect the pitch speed significantly .
Sai
Pitch speed is calculated by the formula given by sai above,
It is the actual speed an aircraft would Ideally move in a solid medium(in a metal for example.) But since our aircrafts move in air, Slippage happens, and hence we do not get that Ideal speed, but always below that. The most important factor that governs slippage is the Air density depending on the sea level we are. Higher air density - better the speed. Also make sure to keep the pitch speed slightly above 2 times the stall speeds. hope this helps.
Quote from: rcforall on February 16, 2010, 05:42:47 AM
THE KEY HERE IS ENERGY DECIMATION ON IMPACT
Fair enough... how about flight characteristics. Can we always expect the flimsy ones to provide less thrust ?
Not necessarily. I have tried on both, gws and apc. And the thrust is almost the same. Infact i like the flimsy gws better as it balanced well, light weight, and slightly bended at high rpm to avoid turbulance, synched in smoothly with motor and reduced vibrations.
EDIT: But after a certain diameter, the stronger ones are better.
Are there any advantages in using propellers with 3 blades or 4 blades in the place of regular 2 blade propellers
Quote from: Rao on February 19, 2010, 03:38:30 AM
Are there any advantages in using propellers with 3 blades or 4 blades in the place of regular 2 blade propellers
Good Looks/ScalModels/Head turners. More thrust for lesser RPM. From my theory knowledge :P, I dont see any other. They are more expensive and probably difficult to balance I guess.
In general the higher the number of blades lesser is the efficiancy of the prop. The primary reason why full scale ones use multiple blades is for two reasons - 1. To keep the blade size to reasonable size and 2. Absorb the huge amount of energy produced by the improved engines.
For example when the Hawker Hurricane was first flown it had a 2 blade prop, but as the engine was upgraded it delivered more power which required larger blades, so if the prop size was increased to required size it would have touched the ground while the aircraft was horizontal (remember it was a tailwheeler). Thefore the solution was to put another balde and overall reduce the dia of the prop.
So now you get the picture?
In our models too when you are using high powered engines and do not have the luxury of ground/airframe(for multi's) clerance you would need to convert to multiple blades, apart from the bling factor.
On the flimsy props. A prop which flexes would again be less efficient and noisy than a stiffer ones, the best ones are wood or carbon composites which fles least but then are very brittle due to rigidity and thus become costly. While you may not notice much difference in general flying proper tests would reveal the truth.
Quote
Had a practical experience with the acromaster today 11 x 4.7 was very helpful in 3D whereas 11 x 7 was not effective in 3D but gave and immense thrust.
This largely because when it covers 7 " per revolution it is not flying slow whereas in 4.7 it is better so i am now waiting for my 3.8 props
Sai sir,
I am sure what you meant was immense speed. Since it was higher pitch it would translate into more distance being covered per revolution and thus speed. Dia being same a lower pitch would deliver higher thrust.
Agreed Capt you got the right word
I am using a 3 blade on the easy glider pro ( converted to pusher ) for this very reason " lack of prop leg room :giggle:" as explained by Capt.
sai
Quote from: flyingboxcar on February 19, 2010, 07:37:54 PM
In general the higher the number of blades lesser is the efficiancy of the prop. The primary reason why full scale ones use multiple blades is for two reasons - 1. To keep the blade size to reasonable size and 2. Absorb the huge amount of energy produced by the improved engines.
For example when the Hawker Hurricane was first flown it had a 2 blade prop, but as the engine was upgraded it delivered more power which required larger blades, so if the prop size was increased to required size it would have touched the ground while the aircraft was horizontal (remember it was a tailwheeler). Thefore the solution was to put another balde and overall reduce the dia of the prop.
So now you get the picture?
Yes I got the Picture. Thanks Mr.Captain.
All Gurus,
Need clarification on thrust vs speed. What is generally said while choosing a motor is that we should have approx 100W per 500gm of AUW. So far so good. Now how does the prop fit into this equation of motor wattage and AUW? How does one go about choosing the various pitch sizes?
Another video on this topic is here :
http://www.rcindia.org/radios-and-receivers/fly-sky-fs-th9x-9ch-radio/msg38714/#msg38714
anwar bhai can you merge the video in this topic or make new topic called the "Basics of propeller" and add all the relevant videos in this thread
thank you
oh and Eid Mubarak to you and dear members of rcindia.org
Subodh
I have linked the video here via the earlier post (the video is not here, but it is pointed to by the link), and many prop related videos are already here, if you have read this thread from the beginning.
This thread is the authoritative thread on pitch, dia etc. "Prop selection" itself is not discussed here, that is a separate topic in itself as it involves motor parameters etc.
If you find other good videos on prop itself (not "prop selection"), please feel free to post it here.
Hello to all RC Addicts!!
I have got a problem....
Can some one please explain me the whole concept of pitch and diameter of propeller...how it affects the thrust and velocity...
also how does the ratings of my motor affect the propeller that i choose...
Thankyou!!!!!
Hope this helps:
http://www.rcindia.org/multirotors/understanding-aerodynamics-of-prop-and-frame/msg103377/#msg103377
Propellor theory is big subject even to simplify. will try to do so soon in Basic Aerodynamics Thread. Some info is already there
http://www.rcindia.org/rc-general-topics/basic-aerodynamics-for-rc-flying/
Hello to all RC Addicts!!
I have got a problem....
Can some one please explain me the whole concept of pitch and diameter of propeller...how it affects the thrust and velocity...
also how does the ratings of my motor affect the propeller that i choose...
Thankyou!!!!!
Search on google first, there's valuable info hidden in thousands of threads.
to be more precise i wanted to know is there any relation between the motor that i have and the propeller that i choose
and the voltage you use..
Motor is matched to the
(a) pitch and length of the prop viv-a-vis the voltage it uses to rotate the prop (Basically the rpm at which it spins, which depends on the voltage it uses)
(b)below the design prop it will over rev and cause damage and under perform
(c) above the design prop the torque on the motor will be high and it will over heat.
that is in a nutshell
design props are given in the manual for the motor
there are 'WideCut' motors like the Hoffman Magnetics which works with wide variety of props, voltage and different prop at the same voltage.
its like i am buying the motor and the prop separately....and from the shop where i checked for it...he is not giving any manual or so with the motor.... ???..
which motor is this, may be we can help
Brother...i havent yet bought it....can u just give me the thumb rules so that i can decide it for myself as in which motor would suit my motor..as of now i have bought a 8x6 prop and i dont know which motor would suit my purpose..so if you cud just guide me :)....
Merged with existing thread about propellers. Please search before posting, most questions have be asked and answered before. Dont forget to visit the "Beginners... Start Here" at the top of the forum. Welcome to RcIndia :thumbsup:
Guys,
While on the props, one thing that I come across in many of the western forums is the concept of prop balancing. While I understand the concept, I would like answers to the following questions
1) Is there a difference in flying characteristics if the prop is not balanced
2) How do we differentiate between a slightly bent shaft/collet and a unbalanced prop?
regards
Pankaj
Have a look here
http://www.rcindia.org/electric-planes/scratch-building-a-look-alike-of-axn-floater-or-fms-800-or-easystar/msg108670/#msg108670
Quote from: PankajC on September 18, 2012, 12:12:43 PM
2) How do we differentiate between a slightly bent shaft/collet and a unbalanced prop?
I think visual inspection is the only way, run the motor without prop and look a the tip of the shaft from the front :-\
@sls. The problem often is that it is very difficult to visually determine if a 3-4 mm shaft is off by a few degrees. Then with the collet & prop fitted it becomes difficult to isolate
@rastsaurabh. The info is about balancing a prop. My question was different
Quote from: PankajC on September 18, 2012, 08:03:45 PM
it is very difficult to visually determine if a 3-4 mm shaft is off by a few degrees
Its easy if you look at face of the shaft. PFA image. If it cannot be determined from this angle then may be its not that bad.
I am beginner to RC .
Can you brief me about the pitch of a propeller .I am thinking that more the propeller pitch more distance it can travel in one round.Is that correct? if not enlighten me.
THANK YOU.
KRISHNA
yes correct.
Imagine it as a screw in air....
But the right selection of MOTOR , BATTERY , PROP combination is the Key for Thrust to weight ratio.
The basics of a propellor are its diameter and its pitch. The role of the diameter is to provide thrust and the role of the pitch is to provide speed. Both pitch and diameter has a direct link to the size of the motor/engine and its available RPM at wide open throttle (full throttle).
The RPM of a motor will change when a prop diameter and pitch is changed so it will result in change of thrust, change of speed and the amount of fuel/battery power it needs to continue to spin. Bigger diameter props with less pitch will give you slow flying with more thrust available while smaller diameter and more pitch will give you more speed and will consume more fuel or battery power.
Propellor pitch and diameter alone can't be a measuring tool to suggest how much distance you can travel in a plane without knowing the size of the engine/motor it has, the amount of fuel or battery size it is carrying, the amount of weight it's needs carry and the amount of drag it needs to fight with.
What is the project and what do you want to achieve?
Did I make it complicated? Think about a 100CC motorcycle with one liter of petrol in it and see how much kilometer it will travel with one person or two persons sitting on it. Also add the type of road it needs to travel, and how fast and slow you want to run it. General perception is that the faster you run an engine or electric motor, the more fuel or battery power you will consume.