Is it a coincidence that all the people in the video are older gentlemen 



They must be having fun reliving the glory of the past.

oh these chuck gliders or free flights are so much fun i can play for hours with them n still not get bored,i have started my aero modeling hobby with homemade foam free-flights !

This is what I have been saying -

We need more people to fly

We need more options to fly both in terms of cost and types.



Pankaj

Quote from: anwar on September 23, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Is it a coincidence that all the people in the video are older gentlemen 



They must be having fun reliving the glory of the past.

Anwar yes,
And that is lamentable as majority of people comig into this hobby are just "flyers" and not aeromodellers. Most do not realise the skills required and the amount of fun which can be had with free flight (powered/unpowered) and other branches of the hobby like CL etc. But then i guess this is the age of instant gratification and people do not have time or patience to go through the long process of learning those skills. They would rather buy and fly a toy made in some far east country and get thier share of fun.   

I don't know if it is lamantable   

I belong to the class that does 85% flying 14% assembling from ARFs and kits (which can be quite an undertaking when it comes to helis, where scratch building is not a practical option anyways) and 1% building from scratch.  If we go by"modeling" the immediate meaning/sense of which is about "building a model", you are right that a vast majority are not "aeromodelers", and are just "flyers".  Just to feel cozy about what people like me are doing, we are "model flyers".  I guess we are missing the fun of having our own creation in the air, but it is a lot of fun none the less.

Since the ultimate objective is to fly, I am not sure if that is something lamantable though !  Like someone pointed out, having a perfectly trimmed model, and executing maneuvers to perfection are just as fun as building a model.  Being able to identify the flying characteristics of various aircrafts, and adjusting your controls to compensate for them etc are fun activities that require skill. 

I always worry when "building" is alone considered "aeromodeling" (notwithstanding the meaning of the word itself).

I never said building alone is considered modelling. Even for me half the fun is in flying and rest in building.
It is lamentable in the way when you see people at the filed and who can not tell a spar from a longeron and neither have any idea how to repair a model because they had no idea how the machine was built. It is lamenatble when you see people who never had the joys of building from kit/scratch (the very meaning of buiolding has changed where assembling an ARF is considered as building) and then seeing thier creation take to air, it is lamenatble when you see people fiddling with thier trims and electronic subtrims etc to get the control surfaces etc set up instead of first setting up to best mechanical advantage before going on to electronic ones. It is lamentable when people miss out the knolwedge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built (in true sense). It is lamenatble 'cause people do not gain the knowledge and the skills which could be had by trimming a free flight model to perform as intended (and beleive me that takes much better skill and understanding of laws of aerodynamics and weather than trimming a RC machine, not to mention patience and time).

But then "The old order changeth yielding palce to new"  (from The passing of King Arthur ) aptly sums it up. Having said that I also accept that every one has thier likes and dislikes and I am no one to force anyone to change thier ways. The only intention of post was to let other knows of my view and I still stand by what I have said and per me an aeromodeller is someone who can build and fly as well. If you just build and do not fly you are a builder, if you only fly you are a flyer if you do both you are aeromodeller

You know the greatest thing going for building ? - its Cheap

especially if you do it from scratch

I am builder from ARFs and heli kits.  When setting up a heli to do a proper "tic-toc" say 5 times consecutively (or a few "piro-flip"s in sequence), unless your machine is really trimmed (mostly mechanically, electronic trim is a last resort), you will be all over the place. And one really needs to know the mechanical aspects of a heli to do it right.  So that puts me and many like in a position of "builder", where I went for a standard design, and part of the kit already pre cut  and pre shaped for me.  Would that put me in a 25% builder category or a 50% builder category ?

More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?      Is "building/assembling an ARF"  considered "building" at all in your viewpoint ?  BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are ! In some ways, I am also trying to defend the average Ramu or Raju, who just wants to fly as much as he can !!

May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. Everyone crashes, so everyone is forced to repair and tinker at some point.  That leads me to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s 

Quote from: anwar on September 23, 2009, 08:33:16 PM

More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?      Is building an ARF building at all in your book ?  (BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are!).  May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. So I would like to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s 

look up "pedantic"

far be it for me to pontificate - I'll tell you my views - I build because I like to - its a hobby after all.

The very fact we are all in this forum tells me that we are all "aeromodellers" - We are a rare breed - especially
in India and I think we are lucky that this is the hobby we chose.

Quote from: saikat on September 23, 2009, 08:27:50 PM
You know the greatest thing going for building ? - its Cheap

especially if you do it from scratch

Will have to disagree with it. Scratch building is not cheap. The Chinese with thier mass manufacture are hard to beat at the price front 

If you are into SPADs then it is definitely cheap.. Rs 400 to make 2 airframes of 40 - 60 size.

I agree with Anwar on helis. I have not met anyone who has scratch built a heli.. I do remember seeing some youtube video of scratch built heli not in India though. So, in my view, if you are flying heli you are predominantly a flyer.

-Ismail

Quote from: anwar on September 23, 2009, 08:33:16 PM
I am builder from ARFs and heli kits.  When setting up a heli to do a proper "tic-toc" say 5 times consecutively (or a few "piro-flip"s in sequence), unless your machine is really trimmed (mostly mechanically, electronic trim is a last resort), you will be all over the place. And one really needs to know the mechanical aspects of a heli to do it right.  So that puts me and many like in a position of "builder", where I went for a standard design, and part of the kit already pre cut  and pre shaped for me.  Would that put me in a 25% builder category or a 50% builder category ?

More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?      Is "building/assembling an ARF"  considered "building" at all in your viewpoint ?  BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are ! In some ways, I am also trying to defend the average Ramu or Raju, who just wants to fly as much as he can !!

May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. Everyone crashes, so everyone is forced to repair and tinker at some point.  That leads me to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s 

Anwar,
1. You say you build from ARF's and Heli Kits - My point this is not building just assembling. Even building form pre cut kit does not count as building for me, the least would be building from plans.This is not scratch building (here again people think that if you build from a plan it is scratch built, it is not). Unless you have desinged the plan and then cut the parts, assembeled them together and then flown that is true scratch building
2. It is good to know that you get the max from mechanical setup before you go on to electronic stuff. But the point is how many do that?
3. That would put you in 0% builder category as it does not count as building. Please refer point 1 above
4. Since you are 0% builder you would be termed (in my opinion, others are welcome to disagree) as model flyer
5. I do not hold any grudge against the average Ramu and Raju, people are welcome to do what pleases them. In my opinion it is lamentable 'cause there is much more to be learnt if one wished to
6. Not everyone builds, most assemble. Very few scratch build
7. If people built they would be better at tinkering and repairing and that would also open up the avenues for inovation and spirit of questioning if's and why's of the design.     
8 I will stick to my point not everyone is an aeromodeller in true sense
Good night for today

BTW - Heli's do not even count as airplane in my opinion they are aircrafts all right, but not an airplane

Quote from: izmile on September 23, 2009, 09:11:58 PM
So, in my view, if you are flying heli you are predominantly a flyer.

Dude.. that hurts !   

It takes a lot of effort to "assemble" a full heli and have it properly setup mechanically and then do the CCPM stuff in the radio.  You should either try it once, or at least be around someone when they go through the process to appreciate it    I always felt it is tougher compared to say a building a foamie from sheets of foam based on a plan.

i fully agree with anwar and a request to others bfor posting like this at least try to hover a heli ( may b  u  can  fly an aeroplane well), then u can feel the difference...........same thing happns in scratch building a heli and an aeroplane, recently i made a aeroplane from coroplast and it flew nicely, but i cant even think of building  a heli from a rtf kit.
Rajesh and Anwar can tell more on this

santhosh

Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules 

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler. 

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.

Oops isnt this thread about gliders 

ADMIN NOTE: This thread was split from http://www.rcindia.org/beginners-zone/glider-lover/ , hence the comment above.

Sorry about that Anwar. But thatz how I see it.

I go exactly with what Manish has said in the previous post. Building from kit is fun but lacks the punch of having your own design taking off to the sky. I am a 100% SPAD builder but I know how much of effort is involved in building a scale model out of balsa. If you could build something from your own design (plan), detail it (in case of a scale model)..and fly it then you are the perfect candidate for a "true aeromodeller".

Helis are a different game. Its not easy to do a scratch build unless you own a precision lathe machine and a decent workshop. Or at least hire a lathe shop to make your design... Scale modeling of heli is next to impossible for an average modeller. So, the only option is to "assemble" from a kit. This will never qualify as a scratch build eventhough you have the qualities of a "true aeromodeller"... In my books, becomming a true aeromodeller the heli way is very very difficult... You need to design and scratch build your own heli... thatz my point of view, others may differ.

And yes, I know its difficult to fly a Heli than an aeroplane. But I do not think that can compensate for the design/build skill. Both are different ain't it?

BTW, I fully respect the Heli crowd here and I do admire their skill. Helis require true skill in building and flying as well...

-Ismail

Quote from: atul_pg on September 23, 2009, 10:51:49 PM
Oops isnt this thread about gliders 

Come on.. you should have figured it out by now.  It works something like this.

1) Everyone has an opinion (aka "butt-hole") on everything.
2) Speak your mind fearlessly about your butt-hole regardless of the topic. Hijack any topic, we will fix it later (see [5] below). You run the risk of getting nasty PMs, like the one I got from Sai recently, to which I responded, and his response back was "Relax". Moral of the story, you can be pretty mean and get away with it !
3) Speak with passion and logic (as much as possible, it is highly debatable it itself though!).  This tickles others ego, and forces them to pitch in with their own butt-holes.
4) A heated discussion follows, which may be completely unrelated to the original topic.  But the information is useful, about 75% of the time.
5) When there is enough discussion, SPLIT THE THREAD into a new one. For example, this will soon be something like "Are you man enough to be an aeromodeller?"  ("Kya aap paanchvi pass sey tez hai?")
6) END RESULT - We have an active forum, not one with one post a day.  Everyone learns a bit, everyone feels self-important, everyone waits for the next round !

And that is my grand strategy ! Some people think it is fake.  Some think we are not serious (which brings up the point, should a "hobby" ever be "totally serious"?). I would say just look at the sanity and logic of arguments, and not try to find (or feel) any "tone behind the arguments".  The only time I was kidding was with Sai and Saju (based on somewhat of a mutual understanding), and even then, the arguments were sane !

 

Man! this butt-hole thing is catching on...!! 

Quote from: RotorZone on September 23, 2009, 10:50:28 PM
Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler. 

If I ever get accused of murder, you can be my lawyer... TWICE 

Ok...

To all builders - why not post pics of your planes and let the forum comment on your building skills!!

To all flyers - why not post videos of your flying skills and let the forum comment!!

That should cement whether we should be calling ourselves or each other as flyers/builders/modellers - and make the forum all the more focussed on planes and flying and building than those stinky b**t h***s!!

 

Quote from: RotorZone on September 23, 2009, 10:50:28 PM
Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules 

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler. 

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.

Rajesh,
Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated.
Yes I can carve a prop myself and have done that too, can not say how many have ever even heard of even that. Yes control horns have been made and so are the clevises with piano wire. If any one is interested I can still teach them. Before the advent of ready made stuff being available and due to shortage of funds that was the rule build your own.
And every one who has responded to my post have missed a very important point and  that is the root of my lament. Today only RC and ic/electric powered models count as models. Why do I need to even build an RC or an engine when an unpowered glider or a rubber powered model can take more skills?     
To add on to the lamentable things here is one more
People do not have ability to see others point of view let alone accept one. And oh BTW the butt hole thing is pretty old people need to invent something new. If you or anyone else has taken the trouble through my entire posts it would be noticed that right in the begining I had said that people are welcome to do what pleases them, my point was that I can not force them to do what I think is right.   

And the last post on this topic from me.
For Anwar,
The feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right (I even know some one is going to turn around that sentence and accuse me of the same, but I feel there is a difference. I have never insisted that what I say everyone should agree to that, rather have been painstakingly insisting that, this was only my butt err! opinion)
As for hijacking someone's thread, since what we have been saying was being attacked it was but logical to rebutt. The administrator had the rights and wherewithall to move all the unconnected threads to a new one.   
And the last point
Before those ARF helis became available enmass, it was the rule that the pioneer's in heli flying built thier own helis and flew them, Yes they were true aeromodellers.
So if you just buy a heli kit, assemble it and do your electronic and mechanical wizardry, and fly it in most amazing manner you do have lots of skills in various fields but no, you are not an aeromodeller.   

QuoteSome think we are not serious (which brings up the point, should a "hobby" ever be "totally serious"?). I would say just look at the sanity and logic of arguments, and not try to find (or feel) any "tone behind the arguments".

"totally serious " - No. But certainly not frivolous either. When there is not much "sanity and logic" evident then one, understandably, feels a "tone behind" them.

QuoteThe feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right

Will second that.