Quote from: flyingboxcar on September 24, 2009, 12:04:16 PM

Quote from: RotorZone on September 23, 2009, 10:50:28 PM
Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules 

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler. 

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.

Rajesh,
Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated.
Yes I can carve a prop myself and have done that too, can not say how many have ever even heard of even that. Yes control horns have been made and so are the clevises with piano wire. If any one is interested I can still teach them. Before the advent of ready made stuff being available and due to shortage of funds that was the rule build your own.
And every one who has responded to my post have missed a very important point and  that is the root of my lament. Today only RC and ic/electric powered models count as models. Why do I need to even build an RC or an engine when an unpowered glider or a rubber powered model can take more skills?     
To add on to the lamentable things here is one more
People do not have ability to see others point of view let alone accept one. And oh BTW the butt hole thing is pretty old people need to invent something new. If you or anyone else has taken the trouble through my entire posts it would be noticed that right in the begining I had said that people are welcome to do what pleases them, my point was that I can not force them to do what I think is right.   

First of all, let me make it clear that my last post in this thread does not reflect my opinion. As I stated in the first post I saw people making their own rules to suit themselves. I countered that using the same arguments. I don't subscribe to the view of "true aeromodeller" here at all. There are many facets to this hobby and we should be open to accept and respect the skills in all the departments. Now when I made my own rules (by extension of the same arguments used by others) how come suddenly you don't want to play the game ?

You said "Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated. " This is the same reason people use ARFs instead of scratch building, but that is a lamentable idea to you. Same argument goes against carving the prop and making your own clevises. The results are just not worth the efforts.

See, again I am using your own arguments against your own judgements.

Quote from: flyingboxcar on September 24, 2009, 12:22:00 PM
For Anwar,
The feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right

That is insane !  How can any one be always right ?  More than that, WHO is putting marks against these arguments (opinions rather) and declaring winners ?!?!?

And most importantly, almost all of these threads are on issues that are highly subjective ("bottomless pits" in Ismail's words).  There is no questions of anyone being winner in these cases. I can show at least 5 places in these threads where I am saying these are mostly personal opinions. Nobody is ever forced to agree with anyone else, how is that even possible ?

Personally, there are only one or two cases where I felt there were concrete issues in these threads, which were above personal opinions.  The very first thread of this argumentative nature was when the whole of "2.4Ghz" technology was scrutinized in what I felt was an unfair fashion and then Futaba FAAST was subjected to the same treatment (a model crashing at 8am in Chennai on a cloudy day, and it is due to heat issues?). It is true that such threads proved that people are passionate about what they believe.  Again saying "I FELT it is ABOVE PERSONAL OPINIONS" is itself self contradictory, but it was something above "just an opinion".

It also proved (as all these subsequent discussion and threads show) that people will vent their opinions when the basis of their arguments are questioned, and result in the forum being a more active and open place.  But declaring winners ?  Come on.  We all are smarter than that. 

(I declared Futaba winner once, but that was a joke and it was made clear. Just wanted to see if the other side was just busy doing something else, or was giving up on the arguments, well realizing that these are mostly opinions).

Quote from: flyingboxcar on September 24, 2009, 12:22:00 PM
And the last point
Before those ARF helis became available enmass, it was the rule that the pioneer's in heli flying built thier own helis and flew them, Yes they were true aeromodellers.
So if you just buy a heli kit, assemble it and do your electronic and mechanical wizardry, and fly it in most amazing manner you do have lots of skills in various fields but no, you are not an aeromodeller.   

It is good to see that you have that opinion (so does Ismail, and I respect that).  I for one, have the opinion that people like me who have spent significant amount of time learning about helis (and associated items like rebuilding nitro engines and electric power systems) have acquired more knowledge in general than someone who made his own plan (hardly anyone does that, except to "base it on existing ones"), cut some foam, and built an electric foamy from scratch using local materials (who in your definition is an "aeromodeller") and stopped at that. 

I guess I am an "aeromodeller" in my own way/definition !    Since we are living in a world when someone can start out being a heli enthusiast and stay that way for his whole life, it is about time we rewrote some old definitions !  Just like you are not building servos yourself, we picked a different starting point suitable for helis, that's all

Quote from: flyingboxcar on September 24, 2009, 12:22:00 PM
And the last post on this topic from me.

This is another aspect I never understood.  Does one have to either WIN or STOP every discussion ? Why not be open ? Why be worried about being right or wrong, and instead speak one's mind ?  After all, this is a just a forum based on some common interests, and no one is above anyone else.  (Being in the somewhat unfortunate position of administrator and supposedly moderator, I have to make it clear from time to time )

Only opinions are personal, the interaction is NOT !

Ok so kill the thread with the fact that all of us are aeromodellers in our own little/big ways and lets start another thread on a more plane'ish or heli'ish subject 

Why kill a nice thread ? Ismail is the expert at that    This thread may have some more juice left in it !

For one it was an eye opener for me that people felt "that someone had the right to be always right".  As childish as that argument is, now I do realize what people mean when they say "make one's own rules".  I guess I just witnessed the birth of one !

And I am taken aback when Sushil agreed that there is no logic in these threads.  I guess people are missing the big picture, that the logic is in the fact that these are "just diverse personal opinions within a bunch of like minded people and each one is arguing his point". I hope it becomes more evident in the future. 

Bottom line, it is OK to have an opinion, it is OK to say it, and it more than OK to say it HERE.  We respect others opinions, even when we disagree with them.  That is the root of a civil society.

I would rather let this thread live... Its so much fun to watch people arguing over their points.. May be we should have more smileys like kicking, punching.. etc.

Exactly Ismail    

And that is exactly what was intended of all the other threads (and never to enforce anyone's will over anybody else, or to be winners). I would like to see more discussion along with reporting of "RC news".  Of course it is exciting to see what everyone else is working on, what new toys/gadgets/models people are playing with, new building techniques and so on; but also discussions (which are almost always based on personal opinions !)

PS: I am working on adding more smileys, got 297 of them in a lot, need to pick and choose some.  Hope to do it this weekend !

ohh why can't we have all the 297

sahil

1. They would take a while to load when you try to post.

2. About a third are unique, and the others are color scheme variations etc of the unique ones.

Needs some sorting out.

By the thundering silence, I hope no one is put off by the nature of these discussions, and reduce (let alone stop) being active on the forum. Personally, I have made my reasons and motives as clear as I humanly could !  There is no hidden agenda, or ego !

I would hate to see this place become a "posh colony where everyone walks around in ties and eats their food with knives and forks", and there is a stigma towards being open and expressing personal opinions.  Those are not "forum"s.  Not only products and techniques be discussed; but issues, thoughts and opinions deserve equal opportunity to be openly addressed. I would prefer this be a local coffee shop, where almost anything under the sun is discussed (while preserving the respect for each another). Well at least, that is my opinion 

There are probably not enough items on the product or technology or build side that would keep such a forum an active place.   But for someone who visits the forum like once a day, I would rather see some bits of new information.  It is possible that I am overdoing it, but I prefer that than under-doing it !

Hey, I am being told I am not an aeromodeller on my face (which I thought I was!), and I like that openness   And the reasons for the classification were well presented, and it was made clear that it is in a pure sense of the word.  What more can you ask for in such a forum !

Dear Anwar,
i think you are a great & mature moderator. There is a need to steer the discussion when it gets too personel ( pardon the spelling) without locking the topic.
Now i feel there are various aspects to aeromodelling.
Flying is no doubt the ultimate goal.
Building is a very important aspect.
Understanding aerodynamics and equipment is probably fundamental.
Everyone probably has these component is differing ratios which is why we form a online as well as on field community. to get input from others in fields where we are defficient.

The extent to which one would build varies.
It is no doubt easier to set-up and ARF than build from a kit or plans.
But that does not mean that the ARF will definitely fly true. it needs to be checked out and trimmed etc.

As with life in general things are getting INSTANT . T-20 cricket. Very few families make pickles the way our grandmothers used to. We buy what we like. So why hold out against ARF builders.

The extent to which one is ready to build varies.
So instance one of our flyers in field had a new ASP 52 engine that snapped its crank pin after the 4th flight. He got a replacement which met with the same fate.  The engine would probably have ended up as spares Finally i took the engine to a machinist here who made a a new crank pin and changed the bearings. the engine runs fairly well, but there was no guarantee it would work even after the effort.

As has been pointed out, the older generation had to carve out props while we just buy them.

That doesn't make me more of and aeromodeller than the other guy who is simply a class apart.

but i agree with Ismail and Capt. Manish that there is a different thrill in building a plane and then watching it fly.

When i retire i am going to buy a mini lathe and mill and hand build engines the way they still do at hobby centre at Kolkatta. But that is 20 years down the line.
Avijit

Another fact is that all of us are % aeromodellers and we will continue to rely on this forum for answers and will continue to participate, report success/otherwise attempts at building/flying planes.

Possibly, we need a tag line or something that states all opinions are agreeable and that we can always agree to disagree vs. assuming that one opinion counts more or needs to.

Ideally, a/the moderator should not be a participant in discussions.  We don/t want to lose you Anwar, as a spirited participant ! So any other possibilites?

I did wonder if I was getting too personal, but still forged ahead knowing captain to be a hearty fellow who doesn't get offended easily by differing opinions. May be I was wrong in assuming that in this instance. There are a few other discussions I stayed away from lest my opinions be construed as being commercially motivated. I thought I was safe picking on Manish.

But Sushil, you have to see one thing.  A moderator says "NO, do not do that", or "That is NOT welcome here". I always said, "I disagree, and this is my view point, for such and such reasons".  This is my moderation, if you want to call it moderation.

I am coming to the realization that people are not ready for such discussions.  They always look at me as a "moderator", and a power above others.  People quit these discussion midway, because they fear something will get exposed, something will go wrong, someone will exercise power or someone will get hurt and leave scars.  I firmly believe none of this has to happen. 

Ismail and Captain made it clear that it is their opinion that a "true" aeromodeller would take a deeper interest in the hobby, which leads them to try at least some scratch design and builds. There is nothing wrong with that.  Does it raise the eye-brows of the rest 75% who do not go that far, and all of sudden realize that they have not really earned their title ? May be. But it is just the opinion of two people (or some people).  Depending on how much one knows, you can always decide that having a basic knowledge around the hobby is enough of a definition to be an aeromodeller.  Neither camp needs to feel bad about anything. 

What is disturbing is to see people leave discussions because they cannot reconcile between such viewpoints.  We are unable to "handle the truth"  (quoted from Jack Nicholson, "A Few Good Men"). Or we are way too cautious about others taking things in a wrong/personal sense.  We just need to realize that opening our minds a little bit more is all it takes to abandon the need for such caution.

Rajesh!
You made me break my vow  
The post is just to clarify that I did not take your comments personally.
And also to clarify that my quitting the discussion was not for fear of being exposed. If that is what some one feels , then there is nothing I can do, every one has one you know what?
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Opinions

Captain -  The "exposing" part is only about the fear of offending others, in case that was not clear. And it was a general statement (like almost everything else is). A fear that would be accepted in general as a good quality, but holds one back from openly discussing anything.  And it is not just you, there are many who are not being themselves due to this reason. Point to be made: you would NEVER offend me (and I can't see anyone else getting offended either) if you had continued on the thread. I welcome you to continue on such discussions always.  And next time (there will be one!), please write "if that is what Anwar feels", instead of "if that is what someone feels". That is all I ask for.

Good to see your list of opinions !   

I would love to know why you stopped the discussion abruptly though (please PM me, if you are uncomfortable about further discussions here).  Because I feel there may be something in it for me to learn.

Quote from: flyingboxcar on September 25, 2009, 06:42:15 PM
Rajesh!
You made me break my vow 
The post is just to clarify that I did not take your comments personally.

Glad to hear that 

I guess a vow broken once is no good anymore so one more post to make the environment more lively.
How come there was not a single post from Sai?
Sai sir, are you out of action?

it appears Mr.sai is off line since 24th

QuotePeople quit these discussion midway, because they fear something will get exposed, something will go wrong, someone will exercise power or someone will get hurt and leave scars.   

Not necessarily. Possibly "sanity and logic" (Anwar's words) seem to get lost along the way, or the topic has digressed or gone off on a tangent.

Anyone who thinks so should re-read this thread from the beginning.  It was a very interesting discussion, stopped abruptly for no apparent reason.

Or if there is a reason, point it out. If there is lack of logic, where is that seen ? If it went on a tangent, what tangent ?

All this proved again that we are more "average" than we think we are (and that goes for me first).

QuoteAnd I am taken aback when Sushil agreed that there is no logic in these threads.  I guess people are missing the big picture, that the logic is in the fact that these are "just diverse personal opinions within a bunch of like minded people and each one is arguing his point".

Having an opinion is not an argument by itself. It needs some application of "sanity and logic" to make it so.

That is the point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully, it appears.

And my comments were in general  and not pertaining to this, or any other, specific thread.

Agreed.  An opinion by itself is worth nothing.

But note the use of the word "point".  It is not just an opinion.  An opinion built on logic is what "making a point" refers to. And one persons "logic" may seem illogical to someone else.  But both should be able to freely discuss it, that is the whole point.

I can see one thing though.  People come, people go.  As long as this forum remains, it will be truely open, in the sense that people should be prepared to handle counter arguments.  When Captain said "just building and flying is lamantable", he should also have the open mind to to hear counter arguments to that. I am sure the Captain felt his point of view had 100% logic to it, while I am free to feel that it is completely insane with 0% logic to it.  Should I walk away  ? Or have a meaningful discussion (or least present an alternate view of the topic) while respecting each other ?  When I say Futaba 2,4 heat issue is not an concern for normal use, I should be ready to hear from others who can argue/prove the opposite.  When you say "I feel some people have the right to be always right", be prepared to be questioned about it.  If that is not the way things work, this is a dead forum; and I refuse to put my name on such a forum (however insignificant me or my name is).

As long as we do not lose respect for individuals and stoop to the level of uncivilized behavior (name calling etc), I will not prevent/interfere in any discussion. Call me an opinionated sicko, but this will remain the nature of this forum.  I don't care if I end up being the last person standing arguing with myself. I had a vision when I started out doing this, and this is just a part of a bigger goal.  We have no dearth of forums, and nobody is forced to do anything.  It does not cost more than $10 a month to create a forum. 

And I am not saying this on some pride derived from any percieved success of this forum.  It is not the end of the world if it goes away.  But for it to remain meaningful or successful, it has to preserve this open nature. That, along with an unwavering commitment to helping newcomers is what this forum is all about. Outside of these two things, there is no RC India.

dear Anwar,
starts feeling proud of you. I agree 100%.
ashta

This forum was started since there was s dire need for people (particularly beginners) to have access to commercial information. That aspect was not covered at all in the other forum(s).  If that basic need is satisfied elsewhere, the reason for existence of RC India gets diluted.

I am already seeing the other forum slowly turning a blind eye to commercial information.  Commercial information is not being deleted the same day, and people who post such information are not being banned. Now, even when members ask "such information should not be posted here, right?", the admins have let commercial information stay on.  

If I achieved that much change, I have achieved what I set out to do.  Who gives a damn about the future ?

This forum needs to have updated content, so that the forum shows up in the top results in Google searches etc, especially for newcomers. That is the motive behind keeping this forum an active place.  Otherwise they will end up elsewhere, wondering what kind of place/hobby is this where they cannot access any commercial information on what they are trying to do; and feel that this must be a hobby for some chosen/elite people.

Keeping this forum an active place requires a critical mass of members and discussions, which we may or may not have now.  If others cannot see this big picture, then I have failed in some ways; but God is my witness, that I have tried.