Guys,

Its rather a cold night in Oslo, Norway (am on a tour) and since I had nothing better to do, I was browsing through the member list and the posts by members who have just put in a few posts. Then there are a lot of the folks who have just registered themselves and not posted anything..

What I have been seeing in some of the posts of 'junior members' of the forum, is that people are looking at a very limited budget to get started on this hobby. Possibly looking at some of the cheaper helis in the market to begin with. I have also seen that these folks ask some questions and then disappear after some time - may be because they may be waiting for answers and that is not forthcoming..... who knows..

But what I want to put across is that we need our suppliers and all the online stores in India to start selling extremely low cost planes/helis. It probably might be considered just a cheap toy by more knowledgeable/seasoned flyers, but I think it would do a world of good in promoting this hobby in India. I do see posts like people stating that it requires a min of Rs20-30K to get started in this hobby. I think most of the entrants would be from the student community and I dont think many would have this kind of cash at their disposal. The fact is that even while we may be passionate about the models and the science behind the hobby/art/craft, most of the folks outside would/may consider these models as mere toys. Given this kind of mindset, taking out a couple of thousands for hobby might be discouraged even for the bread earners leave alone for the students.

In the thread on starting on a budget, http://www.rcindia.org/beginners-zone/what-is-the-best-way-to-get-into-rc-in-india-on-a-budget/ I did see Rao suggest to begin with cheap Chinese make planes/helis, but his voice seemed to get lost in the discussion.

Further, I also do not think that this is an rich-only type of a community. Sure we have seen images of huge models that Chan/Anwar/Sai et all have or some of the other folks discussing 2.5lac model, but these cannot be the only benchmark. So we need to support and find ways to encourage folks who wish to enter on a shoe-string budget. This can not happen by just talking about it alone - the sellers also need to chip in by stocking .....

Further, a message to Anwar, maybe we need to re-organize the home page. When I open it, the first block is about the 'list of recently updated topics".  In the current scheme of things, the list is a mix of all categories and often it becomes impossible to figure out which topic to read or not. After all there are a lot of "selling ...." type of posts as well.

If the first page could be modified to have 2 such "recently updated" list - one of which dedicated to beginers, it would be easy to identify and possibly some of more knowledgable folks could be able to respond to the newbie queries better.

What I am suggesting to all is that we need more and more people to take to flying, so we need to take care of whoever wishes to join this hobby or are new to this hobby irrespective of the budget.

Whether it can be done, I am not sure, but I guess it is worth a try.......

Pankaj

Pankaj

I think that the 20-30k budget is not unreasonable if one wants to get into any serious activity. The cheaper options may well help in getting newcomers into the field but much - if not all - of it would not be usable when one "graduated".

On the other hand it could, justifiably, be argued that this will at least get people into the hobby.

If one had a "beginner's" section, it would be useful to add a separate section for used equipment that people have grown out of. This would even further reduce entry costs.

I think most of us are committed to seeing the hobby grow. The senior members at the local field can do a lot in this respect by encouraging newcomers and helping them in the initial "toddler" stage/s. After all, low priced products can only do so much. Beginner's NEED support.

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 03:59:47 AM
In the thread on starting on a budget, http://www.rcindia.org/beginners-zone/what-is-the-best-way-to-get-into-rc-in-india-on-a-budget/ I did see Rao suggest to begin with cheap Chinese make planes/helis, but his voice seemed to get lost in the discussion.

I am not sure if this is totally accurate.  I always advised beginners to get a sim first, so that they are not discouraged by the "first crash", whatever the aircraft may be (even the cheap chinese ones break pretty easily).  In fact, I always try to insist even experienced airplane flyers to try a sim first when they want to move on to helis, since I have seen multiple people quit on helis the first day, since they thought they can handle them without specific training, ending up in a costly crash.

The second thing I always advise is to go to the local field, as there are second hand items (with proper capabilities), or scratch build help available there.  Unfortunately this may not be an option for a vast majority in practice, unless they are in one of the metro cities.

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 03:59:47 AM
Further, I also do not think that this is an rich-only type of a community. Sure we have seen images of huge models that Chan/Anwar/Sai et all have or some of the other folks discussing 2.5lac model, but these cannot be the only benchmark. So we need to support and find ways to encourage folks who wish to enter on a shoe-string budget. This can not happen by just talking about it alone - the sellers also need to chip in by stocking .....

The whole reason why this forum was started was to promote this hobby into the masses where low cost products can be fully advertised, and people like Sai are taking positive advantage of that. In fact, I do believe that other hobby shop owners are staying away from the forum because we are focused too much on the low end already.  There were couple of other shops who were active for like a week or so, and then quickly realized that this is more of a HobbyCity/RCForAll crowd, and stopped visiting the forum ! 

There are many threads on scratch builds, and how to get started using cheap electric combos.  So anybody reporting about their costly models is the least of issues, that just shows only a subset of the hobbyists.  Plus we have to remember that this has always been somewhat of an expensive hobby, which is the prime reason why adoption has been low the world over.

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 03:59:47 AM
Further, a message to Anwar, maybe we need to re-organize the home page. When I open it, the first block is about the 'list of recently updated topics".  In the current scheme of things, the list is a mix of all categories and often it becomes impossible to figure out which topic to read or not. After all there are a lot of "selling ...." type of posts as well.

If the first page could be modified to have 2 such "recently updated" list - one of which dedicated to beginers, it would be easy to identify and possibly some of more knowledgable folks could be able to respond to the newbie queries better.

Currently, people can see the "Beginners" board on the home page itself.  The "recent topics" list was mainly for the sake of people who visit once a day.  What we can do quickly is to build a "Beginners Gems" list, which lists all the threads that are most useful for beginners. I am not against any change, but I do not see how it can get a whole lot simpler than what we have now.

As far as costs go,
20k is not too much seeing that people buy a mobile costing 15k (and regard anything less expensive as cheap) and use it only for a year or so.
I was advised to buy a 6 ch computer radio as my first one because i was told that i would outgrow the basic 4 ch one very soon. I am very grateful  for this advise and i would suggest the same to anyone else starting of new.
As far as investment goes,
The radio is a one time investment.
the engine or electric power system is also one time.
The airframe can be built with coro or depron.
Aeromodelling is not only about flying the plane. what about repairing and tinkering with it.
It is much more challenging to build out of a kit/ plans, rather than set up and ARF.
avijit

Quote from: anwar on September 23, 2009, 12:35:16 PM
The whole reason why this forum was started was to promote this hobby into the masses where low cost products can be fully advertised, and people like Sai are taking positive advantage of that. In fact, I do believe that other hobby shop owners are staying away from the forum because we are focused too much on the low end already.  There were couple of other shops who were active for like a week or so, and then quickly realized that this is more of a HobbyCity/RCForAll crowd, and stopped visiting the forum ! 

There are many threads on scratch builds, and how to get started using cheap electric combos.  So anybody reporting about their costly models is the least of issues, that just shows only a subset of the hobbyists.  Plus we have to remember that this has always been somewhat of an expensive hobby, which is the prime reason why adoption has been low the world over.

Anwar,

Does anyone seriously think that Indian sellers are offering low cost products? come on!! The entry level buy-it-now price in US ebay is around $30 (+ $10 shipping) complete with a foamie and 2ch RTF with all accessories. With as $50 model, the shipping is free. Most of these low end/entry level products are from China and I am sure sellers in US are also making a profit at that price. No one is in for charity.

I do not think any online store in India least of all those who are registered here in this forum are into this kind of pricing. Look at the discussion thread on Hobbycity vs say Rcforall (just as an example) since Sai is the most active seller in this forum. The standard explanation from Sai is that the Indian online stores are more expensive than individual purchases form HC because of duties, customs etc.... but does it matter to an individual who is just ticking off items off a website?

Just extending Avjit's analogy to 15K mobile phones, I would say that the number of people carrying mobiles in India is very high, the population that gets to buy 15K mobile is very low - so are the mobile sellers only restricting themselves to the high end products? How do you think the mobile operators penetrated the market?

I say more and more people need to fly and it does not matter if they are into 2ch stuff. For this I am saying that the Indian online stores need to a)get the prices right and b) need to stock low end products to encourage the adoption of this hobby.

Then the next issue of helping the 'toddlers' would need to be addressed. However given my own experience I have had good responses so far to whatever questions that I have asked. Thank you all for that.

Pankaj

Does this thread address the issue you are raising ?

http://www.rcindia.org/electric-planes/awing-falcon-2-ch-ir-rc-product-review-price-460rs-hyderabad/

What I find problematic is a beginner being able to fly that plane.

And the bigger issue is, how long can some one stay on such a plane ?  So the person does have to come up with the resources to procure a better model, which brings up the question why it was not done the first time itself ?!?!?

This is a hobby - how expensive you want to make it for yourself is purely your own choice. Some time back in 2001 I met Eshwar at B'lore and he was giving me a home made trainer plus electronics plus radio for something like 25K. I went back to balsa chuck gliders and free flight gliders from IHC at B'lore.

Look at hobby city and check the prices of the branded items like AXI BL motors. Nothing is cheap in this hobby, frankly.

But very thankfully, these are available in India now just like it is outside. I remember standard size servos at 1200/- - 2000/- from IHC in B'lore in 2001. These are available at 600/- now.

A big but possibly slow improvement.

Availability and accessibility (at least raw material) is right now pushing the hobby along. Cost hopefully will also come down sooner than later.

QuoteWhat I find problematic is a beginner being able to fly that plane.

well a beginner with little interest can easily fly this model in no time n master it,trust me i have seen 5 people with zero knowledge about rc fly this model in no time all i did was give then a flight demo n 1 or 2 tips on controlling !

Wow ! At those speeds, I find it difficult to imagine.  I mean I find beginners having trouble with 46 size high winger glow models  that are not flying, just crawling through the air !  I mean total newcomers.

Yes, Anwar, this is exactly what I am referring to.....

All I am saying that we need to find more of these options - searching this online is not an easy task so some of the online stores need to start stocking...

I also agree with TG that this is a hobby and we have the option of making it as expensive is we want - so by reverse logic we should also be able to go cheap as well....

So while some of us may feel the need to upgrade to higher model and radios, those who wish to continue with this kind of setup, should have the option. Visualize a guy/hobbyist crashing these smaller setups and then trying and succeeding to fix it and fly again - That to me would be dedication for this hobby as well.

Remember the chuck and catapult glider days? That was fun as well and I don;t know about other, but at least I was quite passionate about it.

What I want are options....

QuoteWow ! At those speeds, I find it difficult to imagine.  I mean I find beginners having trouble with 46 size high winger glow models  that are not flying, just crawling through the air !  I mean total newcomers.

if this is referring to my response then, the video is of bad quality hence u see the images in the video sometimes moves fast sorry!

one thing i could like to point out is,lack of fear in breaking the model or looking at it as a toy will make the guy fly better n fearless with peace of mind ! one can't do this with a glow model especially when cost,size and sound play an havoc on once mental stability (fear of breaking )

sahil

QuoteWhat I want are options....

rightly put 

all of us are attracted to this hobby because we like see our own creations fly whether it be from a kit or ARF or glider or homemade stuff etc. and in all the discussion i have seen read.....................

I DON'T SEE ONE GUY EMPHASIZING ON FLYING OF WHAT EVER KIND IT BE !

sahil

Quote from: sahilkit on September 23, 2009, 03:10:09 PM
one thing i could like to point out is,lack of fear in breaking the model or looking at it as a toy will make the guy fly better n fearless with peace of mind ! one can't do this with a glow model especially when cost,size and sound play an havoc on once mental stability (fear of breaking )

I forgot to mention that they were on buddy cords. Yet it is a struggle for newcomers, unless they have sim experience.

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 02:09:30 PM
Does anyone seriously think that Indian sellers are offering low cost products? come on!! The entry level buy-it-now price in US ebay is around $30 (+ $10 shipping) complete with a foamie and 2ch RTF with all accessories. With as $50 model, the shipping is free. Most of these low end/entry level products are from China and I am sure sellers in US are also making a profit at that price. No one is in for charity.

I say more and more people need to fly and it does not matter if they are into 2ch stuff. For this I am saying that the Indian online stores need to a)get the prices right and b) need to stock low end products to encourage the adoption of this hobby.

My take on this is that you are looking at wrong sources to buy these. These kind of models are imported in bulk and are available in various toy stores. The target customers for these are the kind of people who walk into toy stores. I don't see much point in selling these through a website when you can walk into a neighborhood store, touch and feel the product before buying. Hobby stores are making available the stuff that a toy store is not willing to sell (because of the much much smaller customer base).

I have seen the kind of models that you describe in many shops. There are also people who buy them and come for help with flying them. I usually hate to test fly such models because most of such models are really bad fliers and I don't like crashing other's stuff. But when you pick up hobby grade stuff, you are assured of a model that flies well.

The chinese are improving on the cheap toys rapidly though. I have been having a lot of fun with one such indoor heli recently. Will try and get a video soon.

QuoteMost of these low end/entry level products are from China and I am sure sellers in US are also making a profit at that price. No one is in for charity.

The US is a different ball game entirely because of sheer numbers. Check out comparative prices in the U.K. and Europe. Also, as pointed out, these are effectively toys.

India has high import AND inventory carrying costs, warehousing and other overheads. Import quantities are small (miniscule by international levels) which makes bulk purchase unworkable.

It's a classic "chicken/egg" situation. I, for one, do not see it reaching "critical mass" in the near future.

I admire Sai and others who are doing their bit. Some, of course more, some less.

May their tribe increase!

Quote from: RotorZone on September 23, 2009, 03:44:59 PM
My take on this is that you are looking at wrong sources to buy these. These kind of models are imported in bulk and are available in various toy stores. The target customers for these are the kind of people who walk into toy stores. I don't see much point in selling these through a website when you can walk into a neighborhood store, touch and feel the product before buying. Hobby stores are making available the stuff that a toy store is not willing to sell (because of the much much smaller customer base).

I have seen the kind of models that you describe in many shops. There are also people who buy them and come for help with flying them. I usually hate to test fly such models because most of such models are really bad fliers and I don't like crashing other's stuff. But when you pick up hobby grade stuff, you are assured of a model that flies well.

The chinese are improving on the cheap toys rapidly though. I have been having a lot of fun with one such indoor heli recently. Will try and get a video soon.

Dear RotorZone,

I see contradictions .... on one hand you say these toys are bad flier and then go on to claim you have been having fun with one such model

Any way, while I agree that these types of models do sell through local shops, but the fact is that maybe (just maybe) they can be made available through online shops as well. In fact is that the entire concept of an online store about more options and at a lower cost. At least that is the claim to fame for the likes of ebay - indiatime etc. Further I also realize that for folks like you, this, like any other commercial venture, is based on the turnover. So all I am saying that more options at the lower end may translate to more business in the end. Then again, every business has a model and if yours is to cater to exclusive/limited market - then that is your decision.

Another way to look at would be to encourage resellers who are heavily into these cheap variety to participate in this forum. Then a lot of threads can start on how to fly these and who know we may get some good fliers after all.

This sport/hobby is all about flying is it not? The more the merrier.

Pankaj

Also note, that these cheaper RC toys are not really teaching you how to fly. Most of these are based on pusher motors and the only control you have is increasing/decreasing the throttle on either motor to achieve altitude, turns, etc. Doesn't teach you anything that a real RC model would with ailerons, elevator and rudder plus throttle.

So, with the low end toys thats all you have - toys to play with. Doesn't help either getting into RC flying or aero modelling.

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 04:45:31 PM
Dear RotorZone,

I see contradictions .... on one hand you say these toys are bad flier and then go on to claim you have been having fun with one such model

Not so fast! I did say the chinese are getting better at these toys. That's because I came across this one and only one toy so far that impressed me enough to buy it. So no contradiction, in a few years I wouldn't be surprised if you get toys that fly as well as the hobby grade stuff we have now.

My objective was to make stuff available that are not easily available otherwise. Even if we start stocking these toys, I don't see how we are going to improve the state of aeromodeling in India. It becomes just one more outlet for stuff you could get from a mall near you. Going OT here: It is not so much commercial for me, I'm not even thinking of quitting my day job until the number of hobbyists multiply at least 1000 times.

Quote from: tg on September 23, 2009, 05:45:26 PM
Also note, that these cheaper RC toys are not really teaching you how to fly. Most of these are based on pusher motors and the only control you have is increasing/decreasing the throttle on either motor to achieve altitude, turns, etc. Doesn't teach you anything that a real RC model would with ailerons, elevator and rudder plus throttle.

So, with the low end toys thats all you have - toys to play with. Doesn't help either getting into RC flying or aero modelling.

TG I would have to disagree. Every flying object would teach you a thing or two about flying/aeromodelling. Any model, even if a toy would need to follow laws of physics else it would not be behaving the way it does.

Quote from: RotorZone on September 23, 2009, 06:26:59 PM

My objective was to make stuff available that are not easily available otherwise. Even if we start stocking these toys, I don't see how we are going to improve the state of aeromodeling in India. It becomes just one more outlet for stuff you could get from a mall near you. Going OT here: It is not so much commercial for me, I'm not even thinking of quitting my day job until the number of hobbyists multiply at least 1000 times.

RotorZone : Point noted about your commercial/non-commercial angle. Did not mean to be critical of your efforts though.

Pankaj

My observation is as follows :
Customers like college students who are looking at aero modeling seriously  :

1) don't consider toys you have mentioned to be Aero Models in the first place
2) They are mentally prepared for a reasonable budget for a   models capable of all controls like TG has mentioned
3) The entry level has dropped from around Rs 25 K 3-4 years back to Rs 6000 now  and this is about as low as it can get in the near forseeable future considering the present technology so they are quite happy with that .

These observations are proved by the fact that most aero modeling work shops conducted  by various institutions are over subscribed  even with the costs of these being around Rs 10-12,000 per participating teams .
If you have a look at either the IIT Mumbai Shastra 2009  site or Fly spad of Anna University or NIT Warangal or Zypher at IIT Mumbai you will find all of them have had to short list teams from the huge response they got .

So from a sellers point of view I think toys like those discussed here  are not even considered to be Aero Modeling  by the target customers .
This is also borne out by the fact that serious hobby shops like Hobby City , Tower etc don't carry these products in their inventory.
So it can be assumed with reasonable accuracy that Globally as well these toys don't feature as hobby level aero models .

Sai

hello sai

no one is saying these toy planes are hobby stuff/grade, its just one more option to get airborne and fun to play around

Quote from: PankajC on September 23, 2009, 03:59:47 AM
Guys,

But what I want to put across is that we need our suppliers and all the online stores in India to start selling extremely low cost planes/helis. It probably might be considered just a cheap toy by more knowledgeable/seasoned flyers, but I think it would do a world of good in promoting this hobby in India. I
Pankaj

Sahil ,

Here's a video of the toy heli I have.

hi rajesh bhai

who is the person flying the heli, it is you by chance....man i was all the time imagining you as some one close to a uncle in age you look very young i can't even spot white hair 

nice heli to bad its on IR, have you tried flying it out door ?? and thanks for posting the video proves my point

regards

sahil

I would guess Rajesh is in his mid 30s, based on the impression I got when I met him 

Initially it looked like the heli had no tail authority (ability to hold the tail is a fixed position), but it looked better after the first couple of rounds.  So is this is a 3channel with throttle, elevator and rudder ? Or elevator is kind of assumed (two channel that always moves forward?)