Mpowershopping - http://www.mpowershopping.in is touting to be an LHS from Chennai. I had a very bad experience from them. I had ordered for an ESky 0404 35MHZ  TX without crystal from them for replacement purposes. I had made upfront payment as requested by them on 19th of December 2009. They are yet to ship me the item in question. The individual in question, one Mr.Ganesh even gave me a fake courier airway bill number. They are not picking up the phone if I dial up from my personal numbers. To me it seems a clear case of swindle. In this business, where a lot is done based on trust, they have let me down. They have even put banners in this forum.

On my part I have learned 2 lessons
.Never engage a local LHS before checking up with somebody in this forum.
.Always order if possible based on COD, paypal or some kind of escrow payment system.

I believe that such behavior is detrimental to other legitimate sellers interests and should be discouraged.

Quote from: antojk on January 12, 2010, 03:06:03 PM
They have even put banners in this forum.

Banners have been deactivated pending resolution of the said issues.

Do you know, they might be be acting **Just** like mediator and the shipment is coming from Hobby City instead!!! HC has something called "Drop Ship (from) address". In this program, they provide their Web API which a middle men can use in thier site and show the **entire** inventory of HC on their page!!!(with stock and price, that could be modified) . The other shop I have raised question about is 20North.com - they look equally phony too, with unbelievably huge inventory (like mother of Amazon/BestBuy/CompUSA/REI and all online shop combined)

Once you pay the amount(of course! not HC price but the dearly L.H.S price, even though the shipment is not local, which is the whole point of going to LHS) and the actual order goes to HC (Hobby City/King) who take their time and ship the item without leaving a trace that its been shipped from HC. One thing they can't hide is may be Hong Kong Post.

So fellas, with the hobby slowly gaining momentum (thanks to Heli's and EP), we would see so many phony hobby shops coming up , who would only kill the spirit of the trusted 6-8 LHS we have today. If you encounter any such "Pay to LHS, Ship from IHS" incidents, keep us informed and we *Should* discourage such sellers from 'eating the cake and have it' (I mean take the LHS booty and leave us to face all customs frills/wait time).

Good job Anto!!

They might be acting mediator, but definitely not using international site DropShip like HC, Since it will go through customs, and will be airparcel etc etc. Probably once we order, only then they might be placing orders, getting it into their hands and then ship it to us.

I was told by the proprietor that this is not his primary business but spurred by his R/C interests. He said the TX is from a Comanche set he had which he had exchanged with somebody and the TX is surplus. Knowing that most LHS in India are small single individual enterprises largely driven by a passion for the hobby, I thought that this was not uncommon.

I am at loss to understand why he behaved as he did, since this could be easiest way to spoil the business. So I waited for a month to elicit any kind of response from him, but he kept on playing hooky (not taking my phone or answering to SMS etc..)

BTW, there is nothing wrong with importing after the customer confirms the order and makes the payment.  Some stores claim it as a strength (Rotor in Chennai was doing it), but they do make it clear that such items will have a longer delay in terms of when the item is shipped. I totally support this type of operation, because it protects the interests of both the customer (he gets more product choices, usually at better prices as there is less of "dead stock price" issue, and the store takes care of customs etc), and it is good for the store that they do not need to keep inventory that can turn into dead stock, and can offer more items.

All that is needed is honesty/clarity between the parties as to approximate delivery dates.

Quote from: antojk on January 12, 2010, 07:23:28 PM
I was told by the proprietor that this is not his primary business but spurred by his R/C interests. He said the TX is from a Comanche set he had which he had exchanged with somebody and the TX is surplus. Knowing that most LHS in India are small single individual enterprises largely driven by a passion for the hobby, I thought that this was not uncommon.

But if this guy is selling stuff that he's been using then thats not even an LHS. Its like ppl selling stuff on this forum. Maybe went out of business, but even that must be made clear to buyers!!!

Quote from: anwar on January 12, 2010, 07:27:46 PM
BTW, there is nothing wrong with importing after the customer confirms the order and makes the payment.  Some stores claim it as a strength (Rotor in Chennai was doing it), but they do make it clear that such items will have a longer delay in terms of when the item is shipped....
....

Thats a standard business practice of 'Order in Advance' i.e "The item is not in stock, pay now and we would get for you". I my self have been bugging Mr Sanjeev to get some EP ARF in advance, in the same mode, but he doesn't seem to deal with those manufacture/distributer. Sad.

But what I have pointed out is about the HC's 'Drop ship merchant information' Funda, where we customers are cheated by the so called LHS, as the LHS takes with the margin money, places the order on our behalf from HC (automated Robot, say) and then we are left with prolong wait (Rotor may bundle their other order with ours and use expedited shipping), and sub sequent Custom hassle (as the shipping address is still ours and the LHS is totally out of the scene).

I would call some one 'An' LHS who puts some of his money, takes responsibility till the goods reaches your door, taking all the custom bull shit himself (thus the 'margin'). One is a better LHs if he puts more money and store best/most demand items and ships as soon as we pay. Some one who uses tactic of API's such as HC and just act as 'Agent'/Dalal , doing nothing but forwarding your order to HC is totally against the spirit of an LHS.

I am not going for a conviction against MPower. What I am asking is if someone has already ordered from them and see sign of such tactic, its better to raise an alarm. I would rather directly order from HC rather than paying the margin to such tout.

I am really impressed by you Anwar bhai for the quick precautionary measure you took. We would glad to see their banner back again, given they come clean. One more LHS!. But if not, its better that hobbyist money is saved from them as there are many students and not 'So' filthy rich (masses) here, who would like to have best bang for their bucks and lost to touts.

You can order from HC directly, but there are certain things like radio that is better left to LHS to deal with the customs.

Guys..  We need to look at this all LHSes in a more practical way.  Yes, there are good ones and not so good ones.  Even many of the not so good ones are not so by intention, it is because of failures in planning, execution and finally, market conditions.

One does not get a full understanding of running such a business, unless one has tried.  You do not have to run an LHS, just anything that involves trading and physical items in stock.  Trust me, I have been part of such a family, so I know.

The first part is the number of customers.  You all know where the Indian RC scene stands on that.

Next comes the choice of products.  Every LHS "thinks" they are bringing in what is sellable.  Sometimes they are right, and some times they are wrong.  

Now comes the most important part.  Anything that they are unable to sell become "dead stock".  An year or two in the business, and you have an inventory that is worth lakhs !  On top of this, there is the "delay factor".  All items get "phased out" either in terms of features or in terms of "price" with time.  So an LHS which bought an item at market prices and was sellable at that time, is now stuck with an item that is overpriced or under-featured

To top it all off, there is competition from external sources also.  If you put these in perspective, it is not difficult to see why we can get four of the same thing from Hobbycity for the price of one locally.  Most of the time, the case is that you could get at most 2 of the same item when it was originally offered by the LHS.  But as time passes, the prices drop on one side, and stays same on the other side.

Some stores hold "clearance sales" and significant discounts to reduce dead stock. Others offer "value bundles" so that the some of the older items move out at the expense of reduced margins from newer items.  The better you are able to do this as an LHS, you are able to "survive".

All of it boils down mostly to the number of customers (and partly to the product selection by LHSes).  

Quote from: anwar on January 13, 2010, 08:32:57 AM
All of it boils down mostly to the number of customers (and partly to the product selection by LHSes).  

The number of customers directly boils down to the Product selection and pricing.

I always want perfect piece of equipment for a given price, who dosent? like the HXT900 for example. So if LHS stored such items only at reasonable price and reasonable shipping, I would have brought them.

But If the LHS claims their servos are equivalent to HXT900 but different name, I would still hesitate to buy, because I never know and there are no comments by other customers. So it had to be Exactly HXT900!!!

Second, Again the price can be brought down, there is no need to show 30 Percent duty at all to customers as they wont be paying legally for sure. If they were paying legally then they cant import radios at all as its banned. So I am pretty sure LHS know what they have to do to attract customers. Its finally the LHS who lose, not the customers. So the ball is in their court.

No, I am not blaming the LHS. I am helping them with suggestions. I would love to buy from LHS if the above reasons mentioned were implemented. Who wouldn't like to support other buddy member of their own country? If I was given a chance to open a LHS, I wouldn't have dared. Its not easy. . Again If I would have opened, then I would try to attract customers, Not that some LHS have not tried this by giving an expensive receiver free. But thats not enough. Pricing of ALL the products should be reasonable. If pricing of Half the products were more, they I will rather get from HC.

No, Again  Iam not blaming the LHS. I am just trying to tell LHS what a customer is expecting from them. I understand you CANNOT compete with HC, but you can definitely come nearer, so that we can start buying from you.

Again there are problems I can't see what LHS have faced. So I rather not comment on the LHS topic further at all. Pricing and product selection, shipping were just suggestions to LHS.

But it again if you take the egg and chicken discussions thats going on from decades on other threads there is nothing customers can do. I wouldn't like to make any more comments as I believe I have already suggested what has to be done in the fewest steps possible

1)Ask customers what they want, what like to be stored. There can be 1000 threads opened for this and Anwar wont have any problems.
2)Keep the price on all prducts resonable. A LITTLE more then HC is always expected and normal.
3)Keep at least the fast moving stuff in stock. I wanted to pick some stuff from LHZ to avaoid shipping but they are out of stock since months. Now all that money went to HC.
4)Keep shipping reasonable for non delicate Items like wires, screws etc. IF the shipping from LHS and HC is same, whats the point?
5)Come up with innovative Ideas. HC sells all screw bags with 100 pieces each, who wants that much. You put different size screws 20, 20, 20, 20, 20 pieces each in a bag. I would never buy screws from HC then. These are some basic suggestions ideas. The moss package from Sai is one example.

Come on LHS you can do better in spite of all the hurdles.

All this time to type rather than going to office(its getting late) is to help LHS. Not to blame them. Hope my comments are considered +vely. I have no Hatred towards them.

I am more than happy to share my HC wish list. They have the best things I have selected out from the whole site.

Quote from: vinay on January 13, 2010, 09:44:27 AM
Second, Again the price can be brought down, there is no need to show 30 Percent duty at all to customers as they wont be paying legally for sure. If they were paying legally then they cant import radios at all as its banned. So I am pretty sure LHS know what they have to do to attract customers. Its finally the LHS who lose, not the customers. So the ball is in their court.

I believe you have misunderstood how this works.  Just because a radio does not have "complete" approvals, does not mean that they do not have to pay customs during import.  The way certain things work in our country, the completeness of paperwork is very often not important, as compared to such items being sources of tax/funds.  Again, this is another topic which we are better off not discussing much.

Anwar,

Lets take a look at the price example. HC sells a 3S1P 1800mAH 30C at about Rs. 850-900 whereas the similar config LiPO is sold at 1900-2000 range by the LHS. Shipping cost in both cases is extra. So, on the price front the cost seems to be almost double. Yes, the LHS has lot of overhead, customs and other expenses, but as a buyer, am I supposed to be aware or considerate about it?

So the way it works for many is that when one needs to purchase substantial number items so that the price of shipping is within 10-15% of the item cost, then a direct purchase from HC or similar site becomes worthwhile; given that most of the time we do not pay customs for personal use. In such a case the LHS is mainly restricted to smaller/single pcs sale at a time which adds to their problems.

I guess it all boils down to the choices one has and the cost of ownership as defined by the price of goods, shipping cost and the time it takes to reach your door. There is another aspect which is the after sales service in terms of replacements of defective goods etc. We have already in a separate thread seen the response/lack of it from Pay Less Fly More with Gaurav having received a defective product and now this. At the end of the day each LHS has to behave line a business entity and offer value to customers in order to survive.

Regards

 

Interesting to see that this discussion seems to be between members who have them selves had a very limited exposure to dealing with LHS based on  what   they have posted till now .They are making noise on a matter on which they have  very little exposure

  the vast majority of members who deal with us seem to be  silent  this again is an interesting fact .

BTW one  deal and one  persons experience  can be a negative  among so many that have gone  right .

The above  is a gross over reaction especially by those with limited exposure to dealing with us .

The  incident  is a gross injustice to antojk and there is no justification for Ganesh to  stop all communication with the buyer after receiving payment .

Just thought I would like to highlight this interesting fact

Sai

Quote from: PankajC on January 13, 2010, 11:28:08 AM
Lets take a look at the price example. HC sells a 3S1P 1800mAH 30C at about Rs. 850-900 whereas the similar config LiPO is sold at 1900-2000 range by the LHS. Shipping cost in both cases is extra. So, on the price front the cost seems to be almost double. Yes, the LHS has lot of overhead, customs and other expenses, but as a buyer, am I supposed to be aware or considerate about it?

I did not suggest buying at double the cost or more.  I was trying to reason out why it ends up being double the cost; where most people think it is duties + shipping + margin and does not give due credit to the "old / dead stock" issue.  

Like the hobby shop people have pointed out multiple times here itself, you can find examples of the same item having double the price a few months before in Hobbycity itself.  The difference is that they sell them off, and the new stock is cheaper (from the manufacturer), while here is continues at the old price due to slow movement.  

So what I was trying to say is... before we whine about the "exorbitant" LHS prices, we need to consider such realities.  At the same time LHSes should try to assess the situation better, and try to move stock with incentives / offers; so as to minimize this problem.

Quote from: rcforall on January 13, 2010, 02:15:32 PM
  the vast majority of members who deal with us seem to be  silent  this again is an interesting fact .

You have to spend even more time on the forum   Because the vast majority is "just silent"... period ! 

It is not issue specific, such is human nature.

Anwar,

In no way I am questioning the price issue. Each seller local or international is free to decide on the price just as the buyer has a choice of procuring from a seller of his/her choice. It is true that I have limited exposure in the RC procurement 1 local (rcforall) and 1 international (HC), but I do purchase other items online.  So the value proposition that I was talking about is to do with the overall price/service package and not limited only to price consideration.

Further, lot of folks are buying online, but few are discussing their experiences. Let me also say that I am quite happy with both the sellers that I have dealt with. However, with only negative remarks coming in for the local purchases, one does get skeptical.

An important factor is just plain numbers. HC and others of their ilk have a turnover that can only be imagined.

I am a distributor for some high end audio products and our turnover of one of the products is 0.1% of their international business! The small quantities involved push up shipping costs. Add inventory holding costs with the high interest rates in India and you may - just - possibly begin to understand the situation. Of course, there are good and not so good (price, service, quality) stores. But that would be true of any trade.

Except for engines - simply because what I wan't is not available locally - I have purchased almost exclusively from LHS. The exceptions were purchases from fellow aeromodellers and a few kits (not ARFs).

LHS, I sympathise with  you. Keep your chin up and the flags flying !

Sushil

As I said those making the noise are any way not the ones who buy big time from us  .

Opposite are many many more   so not really an issue.

Sai

Quote from: rcforall on January 13, 2010, 03:18:26 PM
Sushil

As I said those making the noise are any way not the ones who buy big time from us  .

Opposite are many many more   so not really an issue.

Sai

Sai,
I do not think you have ever received a negative comment about your dealing but are you sure all LHS are as good in their dealings?

Quote from: rcforall on January 13, 2010, 02:15:32 PM


Interesting to see that this discussion seems to be between members who have them selves had a very limited exposure to dealing with LHS based on  what   they have posted till now .They are making noise on a matter on which they have  very little exposure

Not really Mr Sai, unless you consider only yourself the 'Origina'la LHS'    by consulting only your records. There are LHS 'Local' to many cities. And in the same lines, don't you think you are the only LHS so active, apart from occasional Notifications/announcements from other LHS ? As if they don't care ?

Anyway much of tussle in this thread has moved towards the price and shipping which is the most sensitive factor. And these things becomes apparent the moment you open the LHS site. Many people just shoo away from there itself and never get the 'real'  experience of actually buying!

And I second Vinay's point on 'branded' parts. I mean HC has beautifully created a trusted user base of their own /promoted bands even in quality sensitive markets like Europe/US. People swear by their outrunners and servos etc. I can't trust a LHS Re-branded(mostly due to low user base) item unless I seek review from Forum/local club member (Only regarded members like Mr Rao speak about them). Why don't you just reveal the real brand name so that we can at least Google and see some review. I guess their is some harmony  regarding prices among senior members and they wont much question the steep price of similar items - the newbies like me would slowly understand this. Its much honest to disclose things than hide them.

Agree with rcforall. I wonder how people can write so many words on many threads with so little application of their brains. An average smart person would have learned from their experience with the goverment bodies (posted on this forum itself). A little thinking and research before shooting off their mouths would have made them realize why things are the way they are. Could be youthful naivety or altruistic views, but I hope they learn to be street smart and just enjoy the hobby before they create problems for all the aeromodellers.

Most of these kind of posts are made by newbies. People who have been in aeromodeling hardly comment on such topics and if they do, it is never negative. Ever stopped and thought why I have been in this a few years and I am just thankful that I can enjoy the hobby and that things have improved a lot from what it used to be. Trust me when I say we have seen far far worse situations than what is being complained about.

QuoteAgree with rcforall. I wonder how people can write so many words on many threads with so little application of their brains.

Judging by the numbers, looks easy!

QuoteAn average smart person would have learned......

Common sense is a misnomer!

I was *trying* to get everyone to understand that there are many more ground realities when it comes to running an LHS than just prices, but looks like HobbyCity has one hell of a hold on most people's minds  

On the positive side... the cost of entry in the hobby is going down (and that is true with LHSes also).

Nobody including any vendor has said anything against buying from hobbycity as far as I can recall. I think I myself has suggested some of their products where relevant. Some vendors might have pitched their products against hobbycity stuff, but last I checked India (and this forum) is still a democracy and you can choose to buy from where ever you want.

Too much harping based on half cooked knowledge was what got to me