Quote from: RotorZone on January 13, 2010, 05:25:35 PM

Too much harping based on half cooked knowledge was what got to me

Rotorzone,
Care to elaborate on this statement? Specially since you have been talking about the intellectual level of some of us.

Pankaj

I was definitely not talking about the intellectual levels of anybody. I have enough experience in life to know that sometimes even the dumbest guy you know could surprise you sometimes. Given what little I know about what these people have achieved in life, I'm not going to call them dumb. They could be some of the smartest people on earth. I did and still say they were lazy to dig up all the facts and have jumped to conclusions.

Being a newbie i would not go deeper into the issue.
But after comparing the price of whats on sites like HC n that what is offered by the LHS getting items from hc seems cheaper but than you never know when you run into our great custom's trouble.than there r somethings which is best brought from LHS.like the radio.
I hope the LHS prices their products more competitive to attract more buyers.

I mean to offend no one.

Guys,
I went through the entire thread once again.

It seems that we have actually deviated from the original thought of MPowerShopping's conduct and the experience of other LHS. Then the discussion moved to prices.

Could we split the discussion into two threads so that those of us who are interested in how the original issue got resolved can have clarity?

Pankaj

I would second Pankajc on splitting the topic. We seem have drifted away with our grouses.

Meanwhile some more inputs:

Quote from: ujjwaana on January 13, 2010, 12:41:16 AM

Quote from: anwar on January 12, 2010, 07:27:46 PM
BTW, there is nothing wrong with importing after the customer confirms the order and makes the payment.  Some stores claim it as a strength (Rotor in Chennai was doing it), but they do make it clear that such items will have a longer delay in terms of when the item is shipped....
....

Thats a standard business practice of 'Order in Advance' i.e "The item is not in stock, pay now and we would get for you". I my self have been bugging Mr Sanjeev to get some EP ARF in advance, in the same mode, but he doesn't seem to deal with those manufacture/distributer. Sad.

But what I have pointed out is about the HC's 'Drop ship merchant information' Funda, where we customers are cheated by the so called LHS, as the LHS takes with the margin money, places the order on our behalf from HC (automated Robot, say) and then we are left with prolong wait (Rotor may bundle their other order with ours and use expedited shipping), and sub sequent Custom hassle (as the shipping address is still ours and the LHS is totally out of the scene)..............

In Mpower's case there is no such evidence of them fronting another player like HC on their site. Instead they claim to be distributor of JBA engines (China)  which is true, since JBA engines original site cites them as a distributor.

Let me make things more clear:
I am a businessman who has/is spend some time setting up my own business that involves import of technical components many of which need licencing and heavy import duties. Indian Markets are price sensitive and at the same time has an unsure logistics infrastructure. So believe me I understand the scene when it comes to pricing and customer support in a fledgling market. It is mostly a catch22 situation, not enough market leading to no investment and vice versa. There are only some pointers to the future:

• Indiginization - Mr.Sai's MOSS initiative good one
• Low Cost improvisation and support DIY- Things like tools, parts, electronics, to be sourced locally etc
• LHS has and can influence market perception through education/interaction. Conduct workshops targeting beginners and create starter kits. It is also a brand building activity
• A lot of engineering grads are interested in kits for project presentation.  LHS's can come up with simple edu kits that introduce them to UAV projects etc.. And many of them may come into this hobby for a lifetime.
• Support additional ancillary hobbies, say like robotics or miniature modelling etc. May help in developing local suppliers

Above all communicate and the holly word "Evangelize" and be patient.

I am most disappointed with mpowershopping in their total lack of  communication!! That doesn't cost money or governmental red-tape. Believe me or not that is the lesson that LHS's should generally take from this incident.
Be honest and upfront. I may still choose an LHS for the information, I gain in interacting with them on the hobby and buy choices.

Quote from: RotorZone on January 13, 2010, 05:25:35 PM
Nobody including any vendor has said anything against buying from hobbycity as far as I can recall.

True.  But this thread is enough and more evidence that existence of entities like HobbyCity (with their, dare I say, seemingly ridiculous prices as compared to their own prices 6 months or a year ago) has diluted the perception of LHSes (at least for newcomers).  Many of the larger issues with running an LHS are getting buried in the face of one factor, which is price difference.

In many cases, the LHSes are the torch bearers of the hobby, and the unifying force.  The service, knowledge transfer, training and evangelization aspects are also important.  I learnt a lot from the technical/resource people (not the owners or sales folks) in our local LHSes, although majority of the credit would go to online information.  Out of 3 LHSes we have, we totally shun one that has ridiculous prices, and patronize the other two (again, this changed over time, as managements change, or management decisions change). 

Of course, there seems to be no justification for what has happened with Anto so far.  To be fair, I have send the topic to them multiple times from different email addresses, yet no response

Quote from: vinay on January 13, 2010, 09:44:27 AM

But If the LHS claims their servos are equivalent to HXT900 but different name, I would still hesitate to buy, because I never know and there are no comments by other customers. So it had to be Exactly HXT900!!!

Do you know that HC does not make any items themselves, it just re-brands them. When a customer buys then he should rate the product on LHS in india too.

Quote from: vinay on January 13, 2010, 09:44:27 AM
Second, Again the price can be brought down, there is no need to show 30 Percent duty at all to customers as they wont be paying legally for sure. If they were paying legally then they cant import radios at all as its banned. So I am pretty sure LHS know what they have to do to attract customers. Its finally the LHS who lose, not the customers. So the ball is in their court.

Can you please elaborate on this. If you mean that we are not paying duty then you better have some proof or pls do not talk about it. We are not into smuggling, carrier business, etc.

Can you also tell where is it mentioned that it is banned. Hope you have enough knowledge about international trade and know different licencing procedures etc., if not please not talk or write when you have half or no knowledge. We have also imported explosives LEGALLY into India.

Mentioned many times in other posts that we are cheaper than HC on many items, have you written to HC about it ?. If you haven't done that then pls do not talk.

Agree with what Rajesh has said earlier.

Regarding Main topic of this thread, i have no comments till the other party does not respond. If the other party keeps silent for long then will arise.

Man, this is heating up.
Its getting more n more
complex to comments.
One thing the LHS can do
is to put up a comparative price chart for the items.
This should also include the amount for customs ,vat etc
so that people see the broader picture.

I am pretty aware of that. But the point is since there is no ratings present on the site, its no good to judge .

As per the Customs blocked list, Radio import is not allowed in India, though ham radios are allowed. My friend Ujjwaana had a customs issue with radio and the Customs people has clearly showed him the documents of what is banned  , So thats the basis on which I commented on the import duty. Forgive me if I am wrong.

You might have imported EXPLOSIVES legally in India. Have you imported a TX LEGALLY in India? if so please do share the process with us, so that we can also do it

I would have definitely commented to HC about its prices, If I were to stay in China and HC was in INDIA and the prices were high on most of the items. What I was trying to say is that on most of the items - almost more than 80%, the prices Of HC are way tooo cheaper. You may show a prop that is cheaper by 20 bucks in LHS and I will show a battery 3S1P 2200 mah that is 5 times costlier(2000 bucks more) here in LHS for the same quality.

I purchased a prop from Ujjwaana which he had got from an LHS for 75 bucks, I was very satisfied with it. But its mostly props/carbon fiber (may be few items I am aware of) I find the prices compatible. Other than that mostly 80% of the items are way too costly. So it would be obvious decision of anybody that when ordering the 80% of the stuff from HC, why not order the remaining 20 percent from there itself?

Still above all this we were deciding on getting the CF RODS from LHS since they were cheaper/almost same price and we can save on shipping, but they were out of stock from long long time. So we went and ordered many from HC at once paying a hefty 30 USD shipping, Attached pics are the proof. Those are just my order after sharing half with Ujjwaana. There were almost a 5000 Rs worth of CF rods(80 + rods) ordered excluding shipping.

Iam not commenting based on half knowledge on all the things. I may have commented wrong on the import stuff and I apologize. But being a platinum member at HC, with more than 45,000 Rs of order from me alone from HC in 2.5 months means I would have done a lot of research before making such huge purchases.

Note, all my effort is not to fight with LHS or anyone. I have never fought with anyone in life, makes no sense, neither do I have that attitude. All I was trying to say was some things can be improved.

In fact when Ujjwal comes to my place, he keeps on commenting on how LHS can be improved though we get all our stuff from HC, but thats no use, who is to listen? There may be hurles, but definitely room for improvements.

Dear Sai,

I may not have purchased from you, but I do recognise the effort of you put in preparing the combo package, arranging the website in a easily navigatable organised way. No wonder I was suggesting that radio package of yours to the newcomer on the other thread. If I would have been on a limited budget, I would have purchased that package from you long ago. But I already have those stuff with me. I may not have brought from you, but I wanted to be your regular customer if things were as described in before post. Thats what the intension behind this whole typing.

Ujjwal,

I believe its high time to stop commenting/suggesting. It not take anywhere. who knows what all LHS has been through as Anwar suggested in this limited customer country. It just causes heat and nothing more. What ever we had to say has been said, and what ever LHS has to comment they have commented. So just lets leave the topic here and make RCI a more peaceful place for all. 

People please dont mind the different pillow cover . In fact I change the pillow cover every other day, hence the difference.

Quote from: vinay on January 14, 2010, 01:35:36 AM
Have you imported a TX LEGALLY in India? if so please do share the process with us, so that we can also do it

Yes very much, the TX are imported legally and duty paid, You need to have the restricted import licence, the same is only given to companies after they meet the necessary criteria and a long drawn out process and is issued from delhi. So you are more than welcome to go ahead and do the same.

Regarding you comment on 80% of the items, we carry more than 450SKUs, and another 150SKUs which is there at our place which we do not ship and not on our site & HC does not carry even 20% of those items, please check it yourself.

By just buying some items under valuing it or smuggling into india, or declaring item bought as gift, etc is not what we are doing so will not comment and try to do the same.

Quote from: vinay on January 14, 2010, 01:35:36 AM
As per the Customs blocked list, Radio import is not allowed in India, though ham radios are allowed. My friend Ujjwaana had a customs issue with radio and the Customs people has clearly showed him the documents of what is banned  , So thats the basis on which I commented on the import duty. Forgive me if I am wrong.

You might have imported EXPLOSIVES legally in India. Have you imported a TX LEGALLY in India? if so please do share the process with us, so that we can also do it

These are the kind of things that ticked me off. It just shows how ignorant you are about how the system works in India. Indian law can be interpreted in a 1000 different ways depending on how you present your case, the mood of the official and myriad of other seemingly irrelevant factors. You got screwed trying to import radio. So many other people have got their radio down without any issues. Almost any activity can be deemed legal or illegal depending on what sections you apply. Pick up your newspaper and you'll see many other examples of this daily. If the law was so clear cut, we wouldn't have any need for lawyers.

Has it occurred to you that the vendors might have spend time, effort and money on understanding the laws, hiring consultants, lawyers and agents, on licenses etc. What makes you think you have the right to go and demand that they give all the information away for free ?

What ticks us off is that there are many +ve comments/suggestions that the customers are trying to make towards improvement since long time. But all that is highlighted by the LHS is that the core negative points that we make by mistake(like the above, for which I even asked an apology honestly) and is argued over for pages together. w/o even considering the +ve suggestions for a single instance.

There is no meaning in wasting our time over these arguments. It leads to no where.

As well, I had no issues with my Radio, I got an RDS with 8 Ch receiver for just Rs 7000 brand new w/o issues from US and I am happy with it. One of my friend had an issue. None of my problems though.

Again, I have no hatred against anyone. In fact I was greeted very well by Sanjeev when I went to RCD and showed me a lot of his collections so happily and spoke to us for hours giving meaning full suggestions and directions, which I will never get from HC. And all that I have brought from him is just a prop till date.

All my suggestions where just to attract more customers towards LHS, I suggested those based on the fact that I am an RC customer and what a customer would be expecting from a hobby shop. So let us please stop it here. 

So I have decided what I find meaningful buying from LHS, I will buy from LHS and what I find meaning full elsewhere, I will buy it there. So any arguments/ suggestions/comments whatever it may be, I would not like to make it anymore is what I have decided.

Guys please , I think as starter of this thread we are drifting into a flame war. I posted this thread as a means to inform others about my experience and be forewarned. And that is it..

Anto - You do not have to feel bad about this discussion at all  

And the LHS discussion has sort of fizzled out, largely in part due to Vinay's attitude, which I personally see as a positive example of conduct on forums like these.  He made mistakes that he admitted, clarified his position and voiced his concerns professionally.  People do get carried away at times, we all do.

This discussion should definitely have helped people get a better idea about how LHSes conduct their business (and the problems they face), and should prove generally positive in the long run.

What is the latest from MPowerShopping ?  It has been almost a month now since you raised this issue, and we agreed to wait for the LHS to get back to you (considering the year-end, holiday season etc).

No response from them, period. Doesn't lift their phones, no answer to SMS, ...

Now is KartikShah and LHS as well? What is his shop called?

Dear Anwar,
You have been quite supportive of the plight of LHS, but I dare say that the tone and tennor of the communications from LHS representatives is not in the correct spirit.
If I recall correctly you are in the IT field your self and you must have dealt with vendors or clients at some point in time. Have you not seen suppliers bending backwards to accommodate the wishes of the client? I am also from IT sector and deal largly with Govt establishments. I do see different suppliers quoting different prices for the same brand and specs. So as far as the client (even gov) is concerned, they are not bothered with the custom duty or any other levy that the supplier must pay in order to supply the goods. Equally, the client is not concerned whether the item is sourced directly from US, Singapore or India.For the same specs it it the lowest price that wins the deal ( well there are deviations to this but lets not get into that).  So where do the vendor make money from? Afterall no one is in for charity. In this kind of a scenario, the price reduction comes from transfer price of OEM or from the vendor's margin.
Now, why would the gov/client buy from a local vendor and not source directly from abroad - it is because of the after sales service and maintenance.
Now why shouldn't this principle be applied in case of LHS vs internaltional purchase as well?
Consider this - In most cases, if the items are marked for personal use and are considered toy parts of lower value, the custom authorities do not levy any duty. It is coming by post and the custom officer has every right to open the package, inspect and ask us to either explain the purpose before deciding on the duty component. If they choose not to do any of this, it does not mean that the goods that I have imported is illegal.
So at the end of the day unless, I am offered better service, what is the justification for buying locally at such a high rate.
Cases like MPowerShopping and PayLessFlyMore (ref Gaurav's case), IF taken as candidate examples of the kind of service that an LHS is providing, do not inspire confidence in me as a buyer.

Pankaj

Kartik is with RCDhamaka, and please understand that he was responding to a really "huge" amount of criticism, at least part of which was later confirmed as baseless.

Since you addressed the rest of your post to me, let me add that your line of argument ends up calling for all LHSes to be shutdown (except for the "service" part, which is also portrayed as hit and miss).  In this day and age where pretty much everyone has a credit card, it may be possible to continue in this hobby (like people used to do a few years ago) by importing alone and scratch building. We have to look at LHSes as a true commitment towards this hobby by most owners who are also avid RC hobbyists, and are trying their best.  Once we realize that, and the fact that certain items like radios are very hard to import and are made available easily via LHSes, we  tend to accept the price differences to a certain degree.

One has every choice to buy from where ever; what I am expressing here, along with many others is that we should not dilute the struggle that LHSes are going through.  A small part of it is their own making (bad customer service, bad product selection etc), but they are in no way in control of the circumstances they operate in (customs duty, old stock etc); and despite best efforts, local prices tend to be higher.

Only when you develop a closer relationship with any store, preferably run by someone who is also an active hobbyist, do you realize their impact.  Just think of the aeromodelling workshops conducted by Sai for many youngsters as an example.  I don't see HobbyCity coming and doing that. Yes, they do this to make a profit, but they ARE the ones who are doing such things.

So cut them some slack 

Quote from: anwar on January 14, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
Kartik is with RCDhamaka, and please understand that he was responding to a really "huge" amount of criticism, at least part of which was later confirmed as baseless.

....
Only when you develop a closer relationship with any store, preferably run by someone who is also an active hobbyist, do you realize their impact.  Just think of the aeromodelling workshops conducted by Sai for many youngsters as an example.  I don't see HobbyCity coming and doing that. Yes, they do this to make a profit, but they ARE the ones who are doing such things.

So cut them some slack 

I am not condemning all of LHS, only the ones who do not provide service.

True, some of the LHS may be very passionate about this hobby and they go all out to promote the same, but that is a different aspect altogether. You are passionate about open communication and hence this forum - I do not think it is for any form of profit..

There are two aspects - one is commercial in nature and the other is that of an evangelism. Why mix the two?

Further, what kind of an attitude is that of an LHS who means to say that he doesn't care about opinions of folks who don;t buy in bulk from him? Its not right - its not professional.

Pankaj

 customer   vendor  

hope antojk problem gets resolved soon if not what can he or someone in similar situation do ?

sahil

Quote from: anwar on January 14, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
Only when you develop a closer relationship with any store, preferably run by someone who is also an active hobbyist, do you realize their impact.  Just think of the aeromodelling workshops conducted by Sai for many youngsters as an example.  I don't see HobbyCity coming and doing that. Yes, they do this to make a profit, but they ARE the ones who are doing such things.

So cut them some slack 

i agree with u on this  , my dealing with Mr Sai didn't end with me buying the plane alone. Me being a beginner he helped me in the field with  the trimming and setup of the plane! He even passed on some tips on flying the plane! you cant count on hobbycity to do that!

Quote from: PankajC on January 15, 2010, 01:21:36 AM

Quote from: anwar on January 14, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
Kartik is with RCDhamaka, and please understand that he was responding to a really "huge" amount of criticism, at least part of which was later confirmed as baseless.

....
Only when you develop a closer relationship with any store, preferably run by someone who is also an active hobbyist, do you realize their impact.  Just think of the aeromodelling workshops conducted by Sai for many youngsters as an example.  I don't see HobbyCity coming and doing that. Yes, they do this to make a profit, but they ARE the ones who are doing such things.

So cut them some slack 

I am not condemning all of LHS, only the ones who do not provide service.

True, some of the LHS may be very passionate about this hobby and they go all out to promote the same, but that is a different aspect altogether. You are passionate about open communication and hence this forum - I do not think it is for any form of profit..

There are two aspects - one is commercial in nature and the other is that of an evangelism. Why mix the two?

Further, what kind of an attitude is that of an LHS who means to say that he doesn't care about opinions of folks who don;t buy in bulk from him? Its not right - its not professional.

Pankaj

Very good summary, frankly will be great if LHS also have a feedback link or support link on their websites. We have had several reports of LHS shipped items coming in damaged to the buyer. There should be at least a support channel that the LHS must provide to handle such cases. At least some solace when you get stuff like below:

1. Broken - LHS could at least mark the shipment as "Fragile". When you see that some thing like a thin CF flat is bent and broken in transit.
2. Electronics that don't work.
3. Ordered parts missing.

Quote from: anwar on January 14, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
Kartik is with RCDhamaka, and please understand that he was responding to a really "huge" amount of criticism, at least part of which was later confirmed as baseless.
...
...
So cut them some slack 

In which case lets never discuss LHS intricacies on this forum. Thats really not got anything to do with building, flying aircraft. While there is so much to discuss on LHS stuff  there is precious little ever  contributed to stuff on build techniques, flying techniques.

Lets only focus on that 

Quote from: tg on January 15, 2010, 12:32:39 PM

In which case lets never discuss LHS intricacies on this forum. Thats really not got anything to do with building, flying aircraft. While there is so much to discuss on LHS stuff  there is precious little ever  contributed to stuff on build techniques, flying techniques.

Lets only focus on that 

From now onwards I am with you on that.

Quote from: tg on January 15, 2010, 12:32:39 PM
In which case lets never discuss LHS intricacies on this forum. Thats really not got anything to do with building, flying aircraft. While there is so much to discuss on LHS stuff  there is precious little ever  contributed to stuff on build techniques, flying techniques.

Lets only focus on that 

Beg your pardon, but did not make sense to me   This is one of the many threads here, which got some lengthy individual posts, and exchange of "opinions".  If you remove your focus from this thread, we are discussing all the items you highlighted also.

Remember one thing.  RC India exists for making the hobby more accessible to everyone (with the utmost concern for beginners), and LHS is very much a part of the equation from that perspective.

Have you imagined what would happen if all we discussed was any one aspect, even if it is building (or flying) ? Like I have said before, it is all seasonal.  If there is no thread/post related to building today, there would be one tomorrow