Just saw few really sizable UAV platform developed by Iranian college students, for an  event sponsored by the Iranian military and industry.

http://www.suasnews.com/2011/09/8080/iranian-national-uav-competition/

The ask was for a medium endurance UAV with range of 66Kms and a Service ceiling of 4500m. The test gound was an actual mountain terrain instead of a college campus.

I am deeply baffled by the advancement minnow country in front of 'Next World Power' India are achieving , which does not even boast of premier institutes like IISC, IITs and numerous NITs and many elite private funded colleges.

I was talking to a close flyer friend going for one of the sp4mm3r for Aeromodeling competition . The competition has  hardly any genuine and progressive asks from the contestants.

It is so sad that we are lagging so behind from countries like Iran, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Philippines ,Tiwan , SG/HK in Aviation advancements in the colleges. These UAV are made of commodity off the shelf items, which even your Grand Ma can order with a Credit card.

Looking forward for any university to put a genuine challenge and participants really innovating, or at least showing progressive research between  batch-to-batch  contendership (Seniors passing on their learning to juiniors. Juniors taking it to next level).

another food for thought by Marc Anderson
"Why Software Is Eating The World"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576512250915629460.html?fb_ref=wsj_share_FB&fb_source=profile_multiline

There is nothing new in Loop/Rolls/Pattern flying that should be competed in university. You have enough pure Flying competition for them.

I recalled seeing HAL's 'Rustom' platform in AeroIndia 2011 in Feb this year:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/dsei11/hal-rustom-uav-dsei-2011-87879.aspx



This itself looks very 'Amateurish' build, far below the expectation from a Public sector company with at least 10's of Carore of funding and vast resources (What wheel collar is that ? Dubro? Put some good locktite Na?? ) . Better  artifacts are made by numerous individual freelance flyers in west and university students as a 2-sem project!

May be the authorities wants to keep us one step behind them ! (Compare US defense with US RC Flyers). Reason you see so much nagging at customs house!!

Security is a genuine concern  in our country... the issues may not be as black and white as it seems.

Quote from: anwar on September 21, 2011, 07:30:44 PM
Security is a genuine concern  in our country... the issues may not be as black and white as it seems.

No R/C plane has been ever been involved in any incidence. Numerous Cars/Truck/Bikes/Tiffins and real planes have been. It is just blowing things out of proportion by our 'God for Nothing' authorities (Forgot that Ex-IT commissioner talking crap about Cloud Computing).

On the same lines they should discourage Computer education as Cyber attacks are latest threat ? It is all because large number of incompetent official assuming the highest seat of authority, and they don't have any clue what to do! See the number of dead ends in investigation of all the last bombings in the Indian cities. Fire them.

Johny, we are doing a lot, rest assured on that, we traditionally don't chest thump, ( unlike the states) UAV in college is a double edged sword, can cut both ways, should not be encouraged is my opinion.

Gusty Sir,
It was revealed by one of my friends who left ISRO after working patriotically for 6 years. He said that ISRO/DRDO has not got quality college freshers for long, long time (Rishkesh was only bright friend I knew who joined a PSU like ISRO). It is still running on the acumen from Old Grandpa kind of Scientist who are at the verge of retirement.

Unless the Govt encourage the right liaison between universities, where you get the innovators of tomorrow in these critical industries ? Not encouraged, I know loads of people from my batch ending up in US universities. They were no less patriot than their talent.

We have an infamous culture of 'Hiding' things to save it. People may have read the parable of two servants (one servant hid the money given by master into soil and did not invest it).

I wish that Tata /Birlas / Ambanis of today were running Lockheed/Boeing/Raytheon./BAE kind of kind of companies, if the Govt of yesteryear did not try to 'Hide' military technology development from private sectors. We wouldn't have been stuck with LCA kind of catch-22 situation. If we don not learn from past, god may help.

And I still believe White Elephants like HAL should be doing lot, lot better than Rustom kind of project which get obsolete even before they hit first prototype.

Quote from: ujjwaana on September 21, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
On the same lines they should discourage Computer education as Cyber attacks are latest threat ?

I hope I am wrong, and one can easily argue the same old "Guns don't kill, people do" line.  But licensing of guns has in general been positive.  Similar arguments can be had for UAV issues.

Look at this:

J. Robert Oppenheimer, the inventor of first Atom Bomb, which changed the world order the last time, was not a military guy. He was from university.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer

I dont buy to the idea that keeping general public contributing to such technology would keep such things in 'Safe Hands'. We would deprive much of good ideas from ever being born from public domain! The govt should be capable enough to stop  wrong usage of such technology. Remember, risk of not doing research is always more than that from doing it.

I leave this thread with some food for thought:

How Online Gamers help break code for Aids enzyme:
http://www.silobreaker.com/online-gamers-crack-aids-enzyme-puzzletuesday-september-20-2011124041-am-5_2264862620634841187


Increasing role of UAV in future warfare: We are probably developing one of last Fighter Planes with an on board Pilot (Gusty Sir, you need not worry , its long  time before this to happens in our country).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-building-secret-drone-bases-in-africa-arabian-peninsula-officials-say/2011/09/20/gIQAJ8rOjK_print.html

let me put it in a non-doomsday Chiliasts view (a) UAV has two aspects platform and payload (b) existing platforms and engine are good enough, proven, available off the shelf, doesn't cost a bomb, and lot of people who have done the R&D are ready to sell (So we are not tied down to one vendor) (c) Payload too has the aspect of hardware and software. both of which are tweakable , code breakable and replaceable (don't go into ethics issue). at the end of it you got a product at a fraction of a cost (Cost of R&D Production etc etc put together try and find out cost of one LCA (Be advised to keep a doc close to you)). you may call it lack of self reliance, i call it being smart. producing your own is like reinventing wheel when someone has done it for you and offering it to you at cost less then what it costed him, for earning your goodwill and bonhomie. think about that.

Disclaimer(These are my dreams, may not be reality, resemblance if any is purely co-incidental)

Edit
Spellings

Quote from: augustinev on September 21, 2011, 09:41:24 PM
lot of people who have done the R&D are ready to sell (So we are not tied down to one) (c) Payload too has the aspect of hardware and software. both of which are tweakable , code breakable and replaceable (don't go into ethics issue). at the end of it you got a product a fraction of a cost (Cost of R&D Production etc etc put together try and find out cost of one LCA (Be advised to keep a doc close to you)). you may call it lack of self reliance, i call it being smart. producing your own is like reinventing wheel when someone has done it for you and offering it to you at cost less then what it costed him for earning your goodwill and bonhomie. think about that. (These are my dreams, may not be reality, resemblance is purely co-incidental)

Gusty Sahab, Some people dont like the idea of Chinaizing  . They believe in doing their own thing. Recently there was a lot of discussion about the same issue here 
http://www.rcindia.org/electric-planes/hobby-king-is-%27copy-king%27-this-time-funjet/

Quote from: CrazyPilot on September 21, 2011, 11:31:18 PM

Gusty Sahab, Some people dont like the idea of Chinaizing  . They believe in doing their own thing. Recently there was a lot of discussion about the same issue here  
http://www.rcindia.org/electric-planes/hobby-king-is-%27copy-king%27-this-time-funjet/

Somepeople dont think twice about what they are speaking. I still stand by my claim in the above thread, Crazypilot (you have so aptly chose your handle ) I dare you to prove me wrong.

'Chinaizing' is not going to take  you ANYWHARE.... learn from China copy-pasting F-22. Japanising is the least what we should satisfied with. As a matter of fact I have so low regards for the neo-engineers I often come across during interview who have got their degree by submitted copied assignments and projects done by shops around university. I bet you are referring to same 'Chinaizing'. I dump such candidate the moment I confirm my hunch about them because they have proven useless even for Software industry.

On a side note, I am lately noticing that this forum is hugely infested by new obnoxious people who believe in only name calling, clapping on other's comment ROFL, LAMO, LOL foo, bar. The day is not far that this forum becomes like the other Indian forum I left in despair.  

Gusty Sir, its too late, I would revert back to your enlightening opinion tomorrow..

Johny
I agree with you on one thing for certain, of which i PMed Anwar Bhai as well, Free loaders haven. YKWIM.

My point is R&D on defence related stuff is waste of time, (a) it has already been done by someone(b) There is someone working on a counter measure for your weapon system already, so yours is redundant before going to production (c) best is available off the shelf.
R&D on things that will take you onto next millennium is understood, or something that will benefit, humanity as a whole (by Civilian or a uniformed personnel doesn't matter). if we have to stand tall , it can only be achieved by staying a stable country, becoming an economic power and achieving a higher level of literacy. Defence procurement just the amount needed will provide you necessary security from external aggression, take countries which invested more than what they could chew, on defence for example, they are already bankrupt and failed state or well on the path of becoming one.

Tweaking on Software and Hardware is not Chinaizing. If we can write a better software for a machine to perform better and sell the same codes back to the OEM. how is it Chinaizing. I would rather call it 'Indian Super Brainizing'

Disclaimer(These are my dreams, may not be reality, resemblance if any is purely co-incidental)

Quote from: ujjwaana on September 22, 2011, 02:58:24 AM
On a side note, I am lately noticing that this forum is hugely infested by new obnoxious people who believe in only name calling, clapping on other's comment ROFL, LAMO, LOL foo, bar. The day is not far that this forum becomes like the other Indian forum I left in despair. 

Now that is causing me some concern.  I thought I have dealt with "name calling", are there any examples left in public ?

Regarding the rofl, thumbsup etc... that is expected in discussions, especially when there is not enough "pure" topics/discussion.  And it is up to each one of us to GENERATE more of such content.

Quote from: ujjwaana on September 21, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
I dont buy to the idea that keeping general public contributing to such technology would keep such things in 'Safe Hands'.

Perhaps I should clarify my thought a bit more.  Instead of having 100s of colleges play at will with GPS guided UAVs that have many kilometers of range and high payload capacity, such research and innovation should be done by startup companies started by some graduates from the same colleges, under a legal framework and known to the authorities, with import and security considerations.  Now, nothing prevents someone with nefarious intentions to slip into such a company and do bad stuff, but the added scrutiny will be a deterrent (although not a 100% solution).

Quote from: augustinev on September 22, 2011, 04:30:29 AM
My point is R&D on defence related stuff is waste of time

Enough time and money is already being invested; its the lack of output that's worrying. Like DARPA, some part of the budget should be used to inspire the new generation by generating awareness, sponsoring student projects organizing competitions. This way new ideas, technology and human resource can be acquired at very low cost.

Quote from: anwar on September 22, 2011, 08:46:12 AM
I thought I have dealt with "name calling", are there any examples left in public ?

Here

Quote from: ujjwaana on September 22, 2011, 02:58:24 AM
Crazypilot (you have so aptly chose your handle ) I dare you to prove me wrong.

Not really... I think we all have various levels of "nuttiness" in us

PS: Saying "you are crazy" which typically means what you just said amounts to craziness is at best a very feeble case for "name calling".

I agree with Augustinev. Why spend money in things that we cannot produce for commercial purposes anyway? In the end its a build vs buy decision that the MOD has to think about. Personally, on UAVs and Defense spends, I think its better to buy. BTW, if we need to build, we can always collaborate with the likes of Sukhois ;-)

On the flip side, spending on R&D might be actually a lucrative deal for our 'topi & dhoti brigade'. They can siphon off loads of money and claim that it was spent on R&D

Seeing  a nice discussion on this fora after a long long time.

Can't stop myself from posting here, this really proves the niceness of this thread.

First of all different people may have different opinions so does different governments. But that doesn't not imply one opinion is superior to other, and vice-verse. And simultaneously there can some flip-flops of even superior opinions, but if a idea is working that certainly worth pondering. Many of the USA's defense techs are and were developed in north American universities. So why not we adopt and develop same plans. As universities are incubators of future, so who knows which rain drop can become a pearl.

India spends Billions of Dollars in buying defense technology, and as it is well known many of the defense cos have R&D base in India these days manned by Indian Engineers. So in fact we are paying to foreigners to develop technology with Indian brains.

UAV platform is just a tip of ice burg there can be many many examples of this kind. But still there's a increase in private parties in defense sector, and situation is improving day by day.

And regarding availability of some technologies which could be misused, like take example of GPS, let me remind GPS modules are so easily available these days, even some Indian on line electronic stores sells them, so if any body wants to misuse them, it's just a click away.

I want to agree with poster above that there is lack of fresh brains in Indian research organisations. And that situation is not improving. But still, research organisations have delivered technologies with are second to none, one example flashes my mind right now is Packaged food technology (You might have seen ready to eat cooked food like Panner Makhanwala, on super market shelves) developed by CFTRI Mysore for defense forces benefiting all of us. We can imagine result what they can deliver if managed properly.


And finally personnel touches on this forum(as pointed by me previously also) is Leading or already lead this Fora to a wrong direction.

its not correct to just state that we are paying foreigners to develop technology with Indian brains. You might not know, but there is a well defined program for defense purchase called the "offset program" the aim of this this program is to develop the technology locally. As per the rule for any purchase over a 100 million USD (there are quite a few of these), the vendor has to invest 20-25% (i forget exact percentage) back in India. primarily to develop the indian capabilities. So in a way this is a win-win situation.

Secondly, as regards to the pointed personal remarks. What's wrong in a few barbs here and there? Don't we all face similar situation at work, colleges with friends etc? Do we keep changing our offices just because I may have been subjected to some personal derogatory remarks? Grow up!!!!!
Besides, Anwar and the other moderators are there to take care if the situation gets out of hand.

Take note some companies are investing more amount than offset amount, come to Bangalore and you can see thousands of Indian brains working for Companies like, GE, Boeing, Rolls Royce, Honeywell etc. and we have co flyers working with these companies here. And they are benefited more than India, by eating large pie of Indian defense expenditure.

This used to be a gentleman's forum before not a college canteen. 

Quote from: Akshayb on September 22, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
This used to be a gentleman's forum before not a college canteen. 

Sorry to be blunt... but how convenient is it to put down countless hours of efforts by many, trying to maintain some sense of order into a large audience of different ages, backgrounds, intentions, egos and what not ?  And that too after actively participating in many of the "college canteen"ish  discussions ?

Please... cut some slack brothers... we all need it   And help drive this forum to directions that feels better in YOUR eyes.

Well I think you guys know that I believe India is going to be the next big thing in UAS especially the small ones, which is also where I think the money is going to be.

You only need so many Predators and Global Hawks in the world, I think we are nearly at that point.

However for doing simple mapping tasks in your town in wherever you are in the world thousands of UAS are needed.

Heres a couple of success stories

http://www.suasnews.com/2011/05/5458/made-in-india-home-grown-suas/

http://www.suasnews.com/2011/08/7735/india-plans-to-develop-solar-powered-uavs/

http://www.suasnews.com/2011/08/6311/india-to-leave-suas-manufacture-to-private-enterprise/

http://www.suasnews.com/2010/08/688/mav-presentation-at-utsav/

I think the important thing to remember is that lots of what I post about on sUAS News is just bull from companies trying hard to sell. There are very few small systems flying that are being used for real work in the civil world so the opportunity is still huge.

Simple systems safely flying simple tasks will make money. You don't need a University to tell you how to make them.

I am not against University, every nation should have a strong education system that works towards the advancement of civil society in that nation.

Wow!! That article is really cool!

The discussion is actually taking course of merits and de-merits of globalization!!

I was thinking if this can be done as a hobby !! ?

I think guys who are already into FPV, Could take the first leap into it. . . or there might already be guys working on it  ??

Quote from the article in the link.

Quote
3-Level 3 (2012-2013)

Based on conservation programs designed to find wood smugglers in the jungle, the UAV must take off from a specific position outside of the jungle and reach an operation altitude of 8000 feet, then enter to the jungle independently and find two separate vehicles, a red and a white truck between the trees, in the shortest amount of time, transmit the respective vehicle coordinates and return to the base safely.

This would be of real use in our country given the large area forest offices have to man mark. I'm not sure what it takes to start working on it as a hobby. What are we lacking ? intelligence, i would say no (we are among the best   ).  Money? material ?


Thanks and Regards,
Srivatsa

There is a young man or lady sat out there that will make the simple effective system that everyone will rave about.

Universities and big corporates are too slow in this fast changing market.

I sat at a big military conference last week and was told all about detect sense and avoid and how good it was going to be and all I could think was, its already here in the small world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmkTZxOe-bE&feature=youtu.be

Imagination might be whats missing.

But I bet it's there somewhere

I should have added on that last post all the India tagged stories I have are here http://www.suasnews.com/?s=India If you are working on something that you would like promoted then let me know. Oh and follow us on twitter @suasnews and subscribe to the email newsletter if you want to keep up with whats happening with UAVs, its free! (Advert ends) ;-)

That Iranian competition took us by surprise as well along with several other Western similar events, its raised the bar somewhat.